Are American Christians “Persecuted”?

Reflecting on the recent execution of 21 Coptic Christians by ISIS fanatics in Libya, Rod Dreher, writing at the American Conservative, calls the incident “a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like.” Coming from Dreher, for whom the future of American Christianity looks increasingly ominous, the line is sobering in itself. But he goes on:

Yet it is also the kind of thing that people in this country who fear and loathe Christians point to as an argument-ender when Christians complain about social injustice against themselves, e.g., “Get back to me when they’re chopping Christian heads off, then we’ll talk.” I would point out that ISIS is throwing gay men out of high windows to their deaths, and the crowds below are finishing off the job with stones. No secular liberal would — nor should — accept the argument that gays in the US have no right to complain against discrimination because they don’t have it as bad as gays in ISIS-held territory. So let’s put that cheap argument to bed.

At Patheos, Benjamin Corey shakes that cheap argument awake:

Can we stop complaining about this bogus idea that American Christians are persecuted now?

I mean, really. Can we stop? The world needs us to turn from ourselves and focus on this real persecution, because it’s evil and must be exposed and stopped. However, our own self-centeredness as Americans is getting in the way of the discussion on real anti-Christian persecution in the world today. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is actually distracting, offensive, and insulting to those who face real persecution for their faith.

It’s interesting that both Dreher and Corey distinguish “real” persecution from its less-than-real varieties. To his credit, Dreher has always balked at claiming membership in a persecuted class, though his concerns about the loss of religious freedom often toe a blurry line. Therein may lie a problem, or at least a source of confusion.

While Dreher often explicitly disavows the suggestion that Christians are “persecuted” in America, he also claims that they are increasingly marginalized and discriminated against. This may be a matter of semantics, but since persecution is a potent rhetorical resource, and since it is also a central theme of the Christian tradition, Christian complaints about systematic marginalization tend to blend quite seamlessly into a broader narrative of persecution.

As a practical matter, I’m not sure where one ends and the other begins.

For Dreher, then, the explicit disavowal of the word “persecution” may be insufficient to overcome the impression of it in his writing, especially since this has become such a persistent feature of conservative Christian rhetoric in the early 21st century.

All that said, I think Corey gets the better of it here, for two reasons.

First, it’s needlessly dismissive to write off critics as “people in this country who fear and loathe Christians.” I suspect Corey, for one, would not accept that label. Further, critics like Corey do not object to “complaints about social injustice” so much as the hyperbolic veneer that certain complaints often adopt.

Second, Dreher’s comparison of the Christian community with the gay community discloses a head-spinning irony. In acknowledging that gays in the US have a legitimate grievance about their systematic discrimination, Dreher tacitly renounces any role in the struggle they face. Meanwhile, his own claim to discrimination depends specifically upon the maintenance of discrimination against gays. Here, too, clearer definitions of persecuted and persecutor seem appropriate.

As they continue to transition from a history of overt moral condemnation to a defensive, liberal posture in keeping with public reason, conservative Christians must continue to refine their strategies for engaging the public square. It remains to be seen what role persecution – or persecution-ish – arguments will play going forward. For now, though, I’ll agree with both Dreher and Corey that, in the United States, Christian persecution doesn’t really exist.

57 Comments

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    We seem to be seeing a new level of disrespect for Christianity on many if not all levels. This is healthy, and is not persecution of Christianity or fear and loathing of Christians. Going forward, Christians even in the US might need to learn to get by without having respect outside of their own close knit environments. If this is problematic for them, perhaps the Mormons could help them learn how to deal with it.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    Christians got on the target list some while back. They are now lambasted with the same hyperbole as Fox News, Teathuglicans and the like.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Fox News is distrusted and disrespected, but never persecuted.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Persecuted is too strong a word for the kind of abuse they get.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I guess Jon Stewart making jokes about them might be considered abuse.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Christians and other lefty targets are showered with all kinds of silly abuse and fatuous comparisons. So are righty targets, that’s politics.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    god it’s so hard being a christian in america.

  • np453@yahoo.com' NancyP says:

    Christianity is represented by its own (conservative Christian) media and “mainstream” media by its most unattractive adherents. It’s pretty clear why “mainstream” media picks politically extreme conservative Christians to represent “the Christian viewpoint” (as if there was a single viewpoint). Loud controversy attracts more viewers / listeners than it repels, and conservative Christians who aspire to be political kingmakers make sure that the media bookers’ Rolodexes have their contact information and get their PR releases. Liberal Christians aren’t flamboyant enough for good ratings. Ordinary local charity projects rarely get news time. So yes, there is disrespect for “Christians” among the unchurched, because the “Christians” they are most likely to hear or encounter tend to be the disrespectful loudmouths.

  • maintour@yahoo.com' MainTour says:

    What type of American Christian persecution is this author referring to here? A gay couple suing a christian owned bakery to make them a wedding cake or that ISIS is planning to send terrorists into the USA to slaughter many innocents in fashion similar to what they did in the last 90 days in Canada and France or what Al Qaeda did on 9/11.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    What do the liberal Christians think about those politically extreme conservative Christians? Do they see them more or less unfavorably than the unchurched see them? It might help if they saw the conservatives even more unfavorably, and let the media know that they dislike the loudmouths even more the rest of us because of the bad name that those loudmouth conservatives have been giving Christianity. The media should eat that up and give them lots of airtime. Problem solved.

  • thurmaneric@gmail.com' Eric says:

    Yet another reason not to read Dreher, esp. on religion. That fact that he isn’t a spittle-flecked mouth breather is the only reason centrists and liberals and lefties read him in the first place, but that isn’t a sufficiently good reason at all. And this–“persecution-ish”–wins the internet today.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Lefties have their own spittle flecked mouth breathers.

  • zajac600@hotmail.com' Rick Zajac says:

    Rod Dreher is a conservative convert to Orthodox Christianity who never misses a chance to attack the GLBT community; especially any GLBT community within the Orthodox community. He trolls Pro Gay Orthodox Christians on FB without actually joining the group and talking with us. As far as I’m concerned, he’s just a coward who goes running to his bishop to point and say, “See? Look what they’re doing!” expecting a reward no doubt for being such a good boy.

  • Of all the groups of people I can come up with in my mind, Conservative Christians are the only group that I can honestly say, I hope become persecuted in the USA. They are the only group of people in the USA that have done more damage then good. Throughout the history of the USA, (i speak only of USA because I am from here) they are the only group to be against any minority having equal rights then themselves. This is not behind closed door as we all know, either. They have been the very core movement within state and federal politics, schools, corporations, any entity that has any power to force rules, laws and opinions onto everyone else. These people are those who you can say “Ignore them they will go away”. because they dont and they wont. The only good that would come of their existence would be that minorities will fight for their rights, come together and become stronger….on the other hand, there would be no need for minorities to have to spend so much of their life times actually being the ones persecuted by those who claim they are being persecuted. To say that I “hate” Conservative Christians is not an exaggeration. I truly believe they should be eliminated. I use “Conservative” when describing the specific group because I know MOST religious, at least in the USA, are not evil, and the religious community has always been an important part of helping minorities acquire a better life. But the damage the Conservative Christians do, far outweigh the good, and the actually worth of their lives is truly questionable to me. Many who read this may be horrified at what I am stating, which you have every right to, but until I can treat Conservative Christians the way they treat everyone else, I see no reason why they should be respected, or treated any other way then with disgust and contempt. Many may wonder what brought me to hate a whole group of people with such passion. I honestly believe these people are the reason why my life was and is the way it is today. First I will say, I am happier than I ever believed would be possible. However, having to actually say that means there was a time I was so unhappy, I didn’t believe my life would ever be happy in any way. I do put the blame on Conservative Christians. I suffer from extreme anxiety because of all the physical and verbal abuse I endured for years as a young person. Sure there are many who can go through the same thing and “move on” and become very successful in their lives, and believe me I have tried to “get over” the past, but not all of us apparently have the same DNA. Ironically, if anyone were to meet me, they would never suspect I had any “ailments”. I talk to all my neighbors, I hang out a coffee shops, I am well-known, in a good way, in my neighborhood for being nice, but also very assertive and outspoken. So I may be an asset to the little world I live in, but I still believe my life was robbed of many other things and experiences because of Conservative Christians. Ironically, I was brought-up Catholic and never had a bad experience, never molested by a priest, never told that I was “bad”, or full of “sin”, it wasn’t until I looked out into the rest of the world did I come to realize religion has caused so much pain in people’s lives, this all prior to it harming mine.

  • Are American Christians persecuted?

    Of course not. There are no American Christians, or at least none in America’s churches where persecutors might be able to find them.

    -dlj.

  • wesseldawn@gmail.com' Duck says:

    I don’t agree with any kind of persecution (real or imagined) simply because it’s mean. And it’s counterproductive as it fuels Conservative Christian thinking because they believe they’re “suffering for Christ” (or in other cases, Allah, or whatever). Yes we must oppose irrational ideologies while remembering that we are dealing with religious ‘indoctrination’, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. I was that way for twenty years but it was not science that brought me to my senses (as much as I like science) many long years ago. Scientific attempts to educate people are not working in a lot of cases because science does not understand the problem. You have to fight fire with fire and I do that by using the interpreting methodology for the Bible that liberated me. Who better understands both the problem and the solution than one who has been there. You can read about this methodology for free at Lulu.com (The God Rule – just click on the ‘preview’ under the book icon).

  • Dennis.Lurvey@live.com' GeniusPhx says:

    in the colonies the establishment clause was mostly ignored because 9 of the colonies had established religions. it had been enforced on a federal level in the expansion of the post office etc.

    the 14th amendment made the establishment clause apply to the state and city govts, but that was mostly ignored by the courts. the first separation of church and state case that used the 1st and 14th amendments together wasn’t until 1947. For the first time all religions were considered equal under the law. Until then the christians were the prefered religion of america mostly by the force of church leaders forcing the hands of legislators.

    what the christians call persecution is them being taken off their legal pedestal. non christians and strict separationists are taking them to court to get them out of our schools, court houses, parks, city govts, etc. and they don’t like it. christians are loosing their power over our govt and they are scared.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    Brava! Dead on! In addition, there are now fewer ‘mainline’ Christians than Evangelicals, who at last count represent roughly 24% of the US population. I also suspect that journalists, most of whom are unchurched and have no social contact with religious believers of any kind, regard Christians as virtually another species–the Great Unwashed from somewhere out in Fly-Over Country.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    Of course we detest conservative Christians–and hate them even more than unchurched do because they’re an embarrassment to us. But I’m sorry to say the media aren’t out to eat up the news that we detest them. What are we supposed to do: walk into the local newsroom and announce ‘Hey, guys! Listen up: I’m a liberal Christian and I hate Evangelicals! Print that!’

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    As far as I can tell, you are unique in all of Christendom. We need someone from high up in the progressive Christian hierarchy to condemn conservative Christianity.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    Look, Jim: they are–you aren’t listening. And, to a great extent, the media aren’t listening. Last year, when a local Evangelical church made a publicity video in which an interviewee made a remark that could, at a stretch, be construed as homophobic, wrote an open letter of protest to them which she tried to publicize in the local media. The Episcopal Church has been in the news repeatedly for its efforts to promote gay rights and has been for several years now suing the pants off congregations that oppose same-sex unions and the ordination of gays and lesbians. This has regularly been reported in the NYTimes, occasionally on the front page. Representatives of every mainline denomination have come out publicly in support of a range of policies that conservative Evangelicals oppose.

    Of course no member of the hierarchy of any church—other than Westboro Baptist—is going to say publicly that they ‘hate’ anyone. Would you honestly expect any reasonably respectable public figure—whether a clergyman, a politician, a scientist, civil servant or whatever to use that language to condemn opponents? Would you expect a politician to announce publicly that they ‘hate’ the opposing party? Or a scientist to say he ‘hates’ climate-change deniers or anti-vaxxers? Or the chairman of the Fed to say she ‘hates’ libertarians and supply-siders?

    Liberal Christians have no special responsibility for denouncing conservative Evangelicals, who don’t even recognize us as Christians. We ALL, regardless of our religious convictions, should do what we can to derail the agenda the conservatives are pushing.

    I am not unique, or even unusual. You clearly haven’t met many liberal Christians and need to get out more.

  • junesxing@yahoo.com' Jeffrey Samuels says:

    just as a side note, the other day, coming off of a news article about how the arch bishop of San Francisco was trying to force all employees of any Catholic educational institution to adhere to strict Catholic dogma in their private lives, there was a commercial touting the benefits of sending your child to a Catholic school.

    Everyone in the room laughed.

    It appears that Christianity sort of brings this kind of reaction on itself.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I think you are unique in believing church doctrines don’t matter and it all comes down to the joy of church buildings and ceremonies and other formal church beauty.

    In complaining about conservatives, I think they need to go beyond the current social issues. An important issue is the end times/rapture belief, and everything from the book of Revelation or other prophecies. Progressive Christians need to make it clear just how dangerous it is for conservative Christians to believe in those things, and sometimes even act on their beliefs. That is the first major area where the progressives need to shut down the conservatives. There might be other areas after that most huge mistake is fixed.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    I did not say that all all religion comes down to is aesthetics. As far as church doctrines, I do metaphysics and work in philosophical theology, currently on the doctrine of the Trinity. What I said was that getting it right when it comes to theological doctrine doesn’t have practical import, either in this world or any other. And that is something with which a great many religious believers agree. Metaphysics is speculative, and God isn’t in the business of giving theology tests.

    I can’t imagine why you think progressive Christians could ‘shut down’ the conservatives. They don’t even regard us as Christians and aren’t taking orders from the hierarchy of mainline churches. Contrary to your repeated suggestion, we do not have a great big Christian cabal in which liberals cover for conservative brethren or act as their ‘enablers’. Liberal Christians can no more ‘shut down’ the Evangelicals than we could shut down ISIS.

  • phatkhat@centurylink.net' phatkhat says:

    It’s why I make a distinction between the rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth rightwing “Xtians” and the normal, reasonable, faithful Christians. There ARE two distinct strains of the faith today, and the more unreasonable doesn’t even grant their more moderate brethren the benefit of being “true” Christians. [cue bagpipes]

    Personally, I am neither. But I have no quarrel with people who believe what they like, leave me alone, and do not try to legislate their particular beliefs on the general populace.

  • phatkhat@centurylink.net' phatkhat says:

    Eh, there is some guy who posts here who only likes the aesthetics. Maybe Jim has you confused with him.

    I think that the evangelicals have a much louder voice because they are subsidized by those who would benefit from a more docile, obedient, serf class with eyes only for the next life. The rise of the wealthy Xtian right has occurred with the coming out of the American Nobility. I do not think this is a coincidence.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    It wouldn’t hurt to try. The liberals are not trying to cover for conservatives or be enablers. It is just that by not aggressively attacking conservative doctrines, like end times and rapture, they can end up seeming like enablers. I could be wrong, but it seems that way to me. I think run of the mill Christians might see Christianity as a major world religion based on the name of Jesus, and not see the conservative doctrines as something totally outside the rational world, and very dangerous. They might be in the process of changing a little bit, but it is not nearly enough, and I can understand why. If you could totally cut off the conservatives and their doctrines and establish progressive Christianity as a different religion, then the question comes back, what does progressive Christianity believe? I don’t think they could answer that, so it might be better for the religion as a whole, and for both the progressive and conservative parts, to just give each other a little cover and leave it as Christianity is a major world religion, and it is not necessary to explain themselves. It is in that in between state where it is what it is, and big problems can be blamed on the other side, and that works for both flanks.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Can you tell us what state you are from, how old you are? I am 65 raised in CA and now live in FL. I am from a good progressive Christian family, no problems there not of my own making. In high school I wanted something more serious, so I joined a cult in Pasadena. They taught the problems with all other religions, then as a parting gift taught me about the problems in their religion. I have been off Christianity since 1973. I am trying to figure out if there is any way to end the religion for everyone else.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    It’s definitely demagoguery. Evangelicals aren’t wealthy—if you look at any of the stats available online, they are as a group poorer and less educated than the population. But they’re being used by a small group of very rich political conservatives. It’s a very interesting dynamic because now you see Libertarians, who are not religious believers and have no sympathy with the social agenda of conservative Evangelicals fancy-dancing to try to ingratiate themselves with them. This, I think will take the Republicans down. Try corralling Libertarians, promoting the legalization of recreational drugs and other government non-intervention policies, traditional, old school East Coast Republicans (Mom!), and trailer-trash Fundamentalists behind any candidate they can run…

    I am the American Nobility—a upper-middle class urban-coastal ‘knowledge worker’ who believes everything she reads in the NYTimes 😉 and most of us Nobles are good liberals, both socially and politically. If the 2/3 of Americans who don’t have at least 4-year college degrees were disenfranchised we’d be living in Paradise—or at least Sweden.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    And they should climb down off their self righteous pedestal and look at their own problems and errors.

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    Progressive Christianity believes the Nicene Creed—that is what we say or (if we’re lucky) sing in Church every week. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Book_of_Common_Prayer_%281892%29/Nicene_Creed. We know what we believe and that is it.

    Check it out. It doesn’t say anything about whether Hobby Lobby should be regarded as a person and have the right to restrict employee’s access to birth control. It doesn’t say anything for or against Obamacare, gay rights, the legalization of recreational drugs, the death penalty, the right of women to get abortions, or any other issue of morality, politics or social organization. It articulates claims about the existence and nature of God and post-mortem survival. Read it and believe—and don’t forget to bow for the article on the Incarnation and cross yourself at ‘the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come’.

    I do not know anyone, either secularist or fellow liberal Christian, who does NOT see the doctrines believed and promoted by conservative Christians as irrational and dangerous. Most of us though, including me, have never even seen people who believe in end times or the rapture, or Evangelicals of any kind, close up. You, apparently, have. So it seems to me that it is you who should be getting out to fight the good fight against the Fundamentalists in your neighborhood.

    So here I am, witnessing—and avoiding work ;-> Better get back to it.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Post mortem survival. Resurrection of the dead. That is a start. How does it work? Does this mean belief in heaven and hell?

  • phatkhat@centurylink.net' phatkhat says:

    I probably could have worded my post better – must have been multi-tasking. When I said the wealthy Xtian right, I meant in terms of leadership – they ARE wealthy – and in infusions of cash by dark money groups serving the 1%. Yes, many of the Xtian fundies are poor. Not all.

    Sorry, but I wouldn’t call you the Nobility. Noble, maybe, depending on your actual actions, but not nobility. I was referring to the self-anointed kings like the Kochs, et al.

    As to whether the strange bedfellows actually stay in bed together remains to be seen. But money is powerful.

    Also, until/unless we have fully funded 4 year education for all, your voting system would discriminate horribly against the poor. And, actually, there are certainly farmers and tradesmen who have a better grasp on reality than the little rich kids playing on Wall St. with their MBAs.

  • markpkessinger@gmail.com' markpkessinger says:

    Jim, I think one of the reasons many liberal Christians, including Episcopalians such as myself, don’t speak out more about the end times/rapture nonsense is that it was never a historical part of Christian belief in the first place. It was invented out of whole cloth by 19th C. American evangelical, fundamentalists.

  • markpkessinger@gmail.com' markpkessinger says:

    As a liberal Christian (Episcopalian variety), I think it is beyond absurd to claim that American Christians, liberal or conservative, evangelical or small-c catholic, are in any sense ‘persecuted.’ The problem — indeed, the confusion — arises from the fact that far too many conservatives (religious and non-religious alike) believe that vigorous, vocal disagreement is tantamount to being persecuted. It is not, and it is high time they were disabused of that notion.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Can’t you maybe witness to them that those type beliefs are not of God. It has been thousands of years. The end times aren’t going to happen, and those beliefs often turn into a disaster for the environment when people think Jesus is coming, and the world will end anyway. Those beliefs can also bring war when the conservatives are preaching it is super important for us to bomb Iran. We need to work together with the rest of the world to solve our problems, and end times beliefs can do nothing but get in the way.

  • markpkessinger@gmail.com' markpkessinger says:

    Perhaps we would do so, if they didn’t tend to think were were naught but misguided pagans destined for eternal fire. 😉

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    If anyone ever does start witnessing about it have them mention these guys are giving all of Christianity a bad name.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    What problems and errors?

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    As long as the discussion seems to be dying down, can you tell us anything about the doctrine of the Trinity? Is it connected to philosophical theology?

  • husbandofthemoonlight@gmail.com' Husband of the Moonlight says:

    Dear Brother;
    As a fellow Veteran, (USMC-72-78) AND a Native American Atheist, I must add this one observation. NO ONE complains of persecution MORE than the Jews of the entire world; then they are supplied with affirmations/money/support and sympathy by their Christian collaborators—-followed closely by ALL OTHERS WHO FEEL THEY ARE BEING PERSECUTED FOR THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF/FAITH.
    Learning from our elders who survived the European Judean/Christian invasion that began in 1492 (after an accidental discovery by a group of Christians who were seeking a direct path to India–in order to invade/dominate others in the name of their “deity’s illegitimate son”—-LOL) it became clear to ME many years ago that when one complains of being persecuted for their “beliefs/CHOICES”; (e.g. being a Jew, Christian, Muslim, or any other is a CHOICE) they should consider the necessity to make “better choices”………………
    On the argument of persecution of the GLBT community; I often challenge those who are critical of the members of the GLBT community to inform ME and OTHERS of the date (and time if possible) they CHOSE to be “heterosexual”; THEN they MAY have a podium to stand up on and complain: but not until.
    Thank you for your service.

  • Dennis.Lurvey@live.com' GeniusPhx says:

    you are welcome, and thanks for yours. I’ve read a lot on native indians in early america. no other group, not even the jews, were treated as badly. christians came with the ‘convert or die’ montra and thousands did. christians didn’t think that them not speaking english was a good enough excuse. even the non religious presidents spared the corralling and and forced teaching of the indians. the fed even paid for catholics to put schools in the reservations and force feed them xnity.

    It should be talked about no different then the concentration camps, pol pot, or ISIS. By being an atheist you are in some ways getting your revenge. good for you.

  • wandersonacflaw@gmail.com' William Anderson says:

    it seems to me that the basic problem is that many conservative Christians refuse to accept that we now live in a pluralistic society where not everyone shares their beliefs along with their feeling that they own the word “Christian”. Welcome to the world folks. There is lots of room but people have to move over

  • wandersonacflaw@gmail.com' William Anderson says:

    In NAZI Germany Jews had no ‘choice”. Converts, atheists, secular, it did not matter. If you had Jewish blood going back to several generations, it was off to the camps.

  • wandersonacflaw@gmail.com' William Anderson says:

    As an outsider, it seems to me that liberal Christians really are not trying to compete in the marketplaceof ideas. There doesn’t seem to be any real concerted effort to say “Those are not our ideas” “These are our ideas”

  • husbandofthemoonlight@gmail.com' Husband of the Moonlight says:

    There is NO “Jewish Blood”; the “Jews” do not possess a distinctive DNA, they cannot claim a “racial status”. Being a Jew is being a member of a “tribe” of several “sub groups” that in reality is simply a CHOICE as in the initiation ceremonies known as Bar and Bat Mitzvah —–and no amount of posturing in any other argument will change the reality of the science. Native American DNA is very distinctive and has been carbon dated to have been in present day N., Texas as far back as 15,300 years ago. I carry one of those DNA markers in my own. This by the way IS antiquity that not a single Jew on this planet can claim, and certainly not locate on a map verifying antiquity of any sort.
    The Holocaust of the 20th century Europe is a terrible event in history, but the estimated numbers of Native American deaths AFTER the European invasion dwarfs those numbers at least 20 to 1. It continues to this day with the USA being currently in possession of more than 60% of its geographic territory as a result of violating the treaties they brought to the Tribes in capitulation. I am a direct heir to the Medicine Lodge Creek Treaty of 1868; and did NOT inherit a sovereign nation as my ancestors had intended. Indeed, the illegal occupiers will send the criminal nation of Israel more than 3.5 million dollars per day in “Military Aid” while they are in illegal possession of those lands mentioned above.
    We will still be here long after the others have killed each other off.
    Who among us will miss them?

  • baber@sandiego.edu' LogicGuru says:

    That’s true (with qualifications) and very unfortunate. Liberal denominations are certainly promoting a liberal interpretation of Christianity, supporting gay rights in particular, and it does sometimes get into the media. But the message is swamped by the Evangelicals, and all the legal issues now roiling about.

    There’s a reluctance I think to promote, to sell oneself—embarrassment to be evangelical. I don’t know what to do about this. I wish I could do something, because sitting here I see bad money driving out good. According to the latest ARIS survey, Evangelicalism is now the ‘public face of non-Catholic Christianity in the US’—perceived as the industry standard and that’s very unfortunate.

    I wish I could do something about it, and I’ve tried very hard, but it’s kicking against the goad. If you have any ideas about how to proceed, just let me know.

  • nytowers@gmail.com' Jethrine MacKae says:

    … … I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, a multicultural hell, where white, Christian Canadians are now a minority.
    In Toronto, Ontario, we are being persecuted by our own Government who seems to want Christianity to cease to exist, while, at the same time, they promote all other world religions and encourage everyone to practice their faith insisting that Christians accept it. To the point that there have been several Roman Catholic and other Christian churches demolished in Toronto while they allow the construction of mosques, temples and synagogues all over the City and surrounding area.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Oh, gak me out the door. There are none, Jim, they are perfect. Back to sleep now.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I know there are little things here and there, but no major issues like on the right. The point is if you list them, you will make that obvious to us and yourself.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    I will leave that to more learned pens than mine. I have seen articles lately by Dems mulling over problems. Let me just say that both parties are “of the rich”, and sex issues are not that important compared to the collapse of various cities and towns. But hey, we of the hoi polloi are just so dim.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Cities and towns collapse because they are in a competition against each other to see who can cut taxes on rich and companies the most. A town cuts taxes so that the company will move there from the neighboring town. Then both cities don’t have money, but at least the city that cut taxes the most has a company with jobs for its people. The Democrats might be screwed up on a lot of things, but the Republicans have a long term working strategy of cutting taxes so they can keep more money in their pockets.

  • saschwalm@hotmail.com' Eponymous1 says:

    After
    the Family Research Council was listed as a “hate
    group” by the leftist Southern Poverty Law Center for its resistance to
    mainstreaming homosexuality, Floyd Lee Corkins went their office to shoot up
    the Christian “haters” and smear Chik-fil-a sandwiches in their
    faces.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/06/justice/dc-family-research-council-shooting/

    Women “Subjected to
    rape threats, threats to have acid thrown in their faces, and a series of
    disturbing death threats, one of the plaintiffs finished her Georgia Tech
    career with a police escort on campus.”
    Why? Lawsuit against
    unconstitutional Georgia Tech LGBTQ program effectively mandating acceptance of
    “gay” lifestyles:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/396355/grotesque-double-standards-religious-liberty-atlanta-david-french

    Thoughts you may not think: Atlanta Fire Chief suspended without pay for one month
    and must undergo sensitivity training a Christian book that described
    homosexuality (as did St. Paul) as a “sexual perversion.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/25/atlanta-fire-chief-kelvin-cochran-suspended-for-ga/

    Hamic said that he would give same sex couples
    marriage licenses should the law require him to do so, but he would stop
    performing ceremonies for all couples due to his religious beliefs. But for some people that just isn’t
    good enough and the judge began
    receiving threats of violence for simply saying he would step down and not
    participate in licensing SSM.

    http://www.dothanfirst.com/story/d/story/judge-ive-been-threatened-due-to-same-sex-marriage/24171/Y3N1SR2ts0iQV-p-JyIaHw?sf35887512=1

    Christian Student groups won’t be
    recognized by many campuses unless they abandon their moral principles and
    allow actively “gay and lesbian” students in their leadership:

    http://www.religionnews.com/2014/09/08/christian-group-sanctioned-two-dozen-college-campuses/

    Professor suspended for criticizing
    colleague who banned conservative student from discussing “gay marriage” then
    telling student to drop her class:

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/17/marquette-prof-suspended-for-criticizing-liberal-colleague-who-squashed-gay-rights-debate/

    The professor wrote: “(the teacher), of course, was just using a
    tactic typical among liberals now,” adding that “opinions with which they
    disagree are not merely wrong, and are not to be argued against on their
    merits, but are deemed ‘offensive’ and need to be shut up.” For which he was shut up.

    D.C. Council forces religious schools to
    accept homosexual behavior:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/10/conscience-rights-for-dc-religious-schools-threate/

    Houston’s Mayor subpoena’s ministers
    sermons, speeches and all other communications because they opposed the Mayor’s
    new transgender ruling for bathroom used for transsexuals: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/houston.mayor.backs.down.but.bathroom.bill.controversy.still.rages/41897.htm

    Christian Ministers told by city attorney
    that they must provide same-sex wedding ceremonies:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/22/couer-dalene-city-attorney-confirms-conservative-christian-ministers-wedding-chapel-business-must-provide-same-sex-marriage-ceremonies/

    At DOJ, celebrating homosexuality is MANDATORY.

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/justice-department-employees-must-affirm-homosexuality

    If you’re a supporter of traditional
    marriage, then you have no right to work anywhere, at least according to ESPN
    and the Human Rights Campaign.

    http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2014/07/espn-human-rights-campaign-blast.html

    Prop 8 supporters were hounded mercilessly,
    vandalized and attacked for supporting traditional (real) marriage:

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/10/the-price-of-prop-8

    Denver Cake baker forced to serve cake for “gay” event…

    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/12/06/judge-orders-colorado-cake-maker-to-serve-gay-couples/

    then was called a “NAZI” – by the government officials
    punishing HIM

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/12/colorado-cake-case-pits-religion-against-tolerance/

    Iowa Cake baker sued:

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-baker-may-be-sued-over-lesbian-couples-wedding-cake-62269/

    Oregon Baker sued:

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/16469-oregon-bakery-closes-over-owners-refusal-to-serve-gay-wedding

    A gay Iowa
    couple complained to the their state’s civil rights commission after the Gortz
    Haus, a potential wedding venue, turned them away. But the Christian owners of
    the venue have countered with a lawsuit of their own—claiming that
    hosting a same-sex wedding would violate their religious beliefs.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/iowa-wedding-venue-lawsuit-refuse-same-sex-ceremonies-article-1.1481816

    Christian
    farm owners in upstate New York who declined a lesbian couple’s request to hold
    a wedding ceremony on their property have been fined $10,000 and ordered to pay
    the women $1,500 each.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/farm-owners-fined-for-saying-no-to-lesbian-wedding/2014/08/19/1cfe5ca2-27dd-11e4-8b10-7db129976abb_story.html

    A Lexington,
    KY t-shirt company is under investigation by the city’s Human Rights Commission
    after they refused to print t-shirts for a local gay rights organization.

    http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/homosexuals-file-human-rights-complaint-against-t-shirt-company.html

    A human rights official in
    Kentucky says it might be perfectly fine for a printing company run by “gays”
    to refuse to print anti-”gay” literature, but a Christian company refusing to
    print T-shirts for a “gay” event would not have that same right.

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/homosexuals-blast-t-shirt-company-over-beliefs-speech/

    Florist
    Barronelle Stutzman was sued by both the state Attorney General Bob Ferguson
    and the couple, Robert Ingersoll and Curt Freed, in 2013.

    The pair were longtime customers of Stutzman’s
    Richland business, Arlene’s Flowers, and asked her to provide decorations
    for their wedding following the state’s legalization of same-sex marriage.

    Stutzman
    maintained that her Christian beliefs prevented her from selling flowers for
    the same-sex wedding…”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/19/us-usa-washington-gaymarriage-idUSKBN0LN0B520150219

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Gay-wedding-lawsuits-against-Wash-florist-may-combine-226744761.html

    Law Clerks, judges, who support traditional marriage
    forced out of their jobs or had to quit:

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/10/25/5266424/nc-magistrates-resign-over-gay.html#.VE5e9_ldXGQ

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/second-town-clerk-resigns-over-new-york-gay-marriage-law-52460/

    New Mexico Photographer sued and fined

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/refuse-to-photograph-lesbians-get-fined-7000/

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/august/nm-supreme-court-photographers-cant-refuse-gay-weddings.html?paging=off

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/08/28/entrepreneurship-threatened-by-ruling-in-new-mexico-gay-marriage-case/

    Brandon Eich — fired as CEO for believing that marriage
    is a man and a woman.

    Phil Robertson — attacked for saying “women have
    more to offer” a man, and suggesting men should prefer women.

    Benham Brothers – show dropped, dropped by bank as
    approved vendor for supporting Christian view of marriage.

    Don Jones for “OMG” and “horrible” tweets Fined, suspended
    and given “sensitivity training” RE Michael Sam’s open-mouth same sex televised
    kiss.

    Radio hosts, fired for transgender remarks – after municipality
    decided that taxpayers are going to pay for “gender reassignment surgery.”
    JOKING not allowed.

    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/09/kimberly_beck_rochester_back_on_air_transgender.html

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Perhaps you have replaced faith in a religion with faith in a political party.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Wow, that is one interesting post.

  • johninbellevue@yahoo.com' not_guilty says:

    The politically conservative religionists seem to have trouble understanding Jesus’ pronouncement that His Kingdom is not of this world.

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