As a Christian who happens to also be a lesbian, one of the phrases I hear a lot from those who believe homosexuality is a sin is that they don’t hate me as a person, but they hate my “behavior”—in short, they love the “sinner” but hate the “sin.” No matter what they say, however, hatred is hatred, and their hatred for my “sin” tends to overwhelm any manner of love they may feel for me. All I seem to feel is their hatred, rejection, and wrath over my “sin.”
At least one right-wing leader, Joel McDurman, who is director of research for American Vision, an ultra-fundamentalist “Christian Reconstructionist” group in Georgia, would say I’m right in that assessment, and anti-gay Christians should just give up the whole charade of “loving” gay people while hating their “sin,” and instead, hate both the sinner and their sin.
The evangelical mantra has always been “hate the sin but love the sinner,” which is good pastoral advice to a large degree, but even this piece of folk-wisdom falls short of the biblical standard. God and His spokesmen reveal a clear role for hate of both sin (Ps. 97:10; 101:3; 119:104, 113, 128, 163; 139:21, 22) and the sinners themselves (Ps. 5:5; 11:5; 26:5; 31:6; Mal. 1:1–3; Rom. 9:13) in some circumstances. Mind you, this is not hate in the sense of legitimizing interpersonal violence or anything like that: the Bible calls us specifically to avoid that perverted level of hate (Prov. 10:12; Matt. 5:43–44). But we are definitely called to revulsion of certain acts and of those that commit them in some instances; and this certainly legitimizes social ostracizing in some cases. This revulsion and separation the Bible commends as righteous “hate.”
Thumbing through McDurman’s examples of where we're told to hate the sinner themselves, I find his selections puzzling. First, the vast majority of them from the Old Testament, which contains laws Christians claim they are no longer obligated to observe. Second, the passages don't say what he says they say. Let’s look at a couple of examples:
Psalm 26:5 reads: “I hate the company of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked.”
Psalm 5:5 reads: “The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.”
Even if we continuing to Psalm 5:6 we find: “You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful.”
Psalm 31:6 declares: “You hate those who pay regard to worthless idols, but I trust in the Lord.”
What I read in these passages is a condemnation of actions, not the people themselves. Hating someone's company doesn’t equal hating them as a person. The other verses speak of behaviors, being boastful, being a liar, bloodthirsty, deceitful, or worshiping idols. There’s nothing here that tells us to hate the “sinner” themselves.
The Romans 9:13 passage is even more puzzling, stating: “As it is written, ‘I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.’” In this passage, Paul is not urging people to hate sinners or applauding hatred in general. Instead, Paul uses the example of Jacob and Esau to show how God upends the “expected” order of things—Esau, as the older brother should have been favored over his younger brother, but God “hated” Esau, and instead favored Jacob, the younger brother. Paul is not recommending “hating” anyone, but is using this historic example to underscore how God acts in the world—favoring the outcast, elevating those who are often scorned or forgotten by society. If anything, this verse proves that those “hated” by society (for their behavior or their mere existence) are exactly those who have a special place in God’s heart and God’s idea of a “perfect” society. This is actually good news for gays and lesbians who find themselves hated by society.
McDurman uses his essay to argue that the “kill the gays” bill currently being considered in Uganda is not “unChristian,” but is instead in keeping with biblical law.
God also reveals specific punishments for specific civil crimes. He revealed that some civil crimes require restitution, a few require the death penalty. […] Now, it just so happens that God revealed that the homosexual act is a civil crime, and it just so happens that He revealed that the homosexual act as a civil crime deserves the death penalty.
I’m sure McDurman delights in going down that logical road to advocate for the death penalty for gays and lesbians, but God also decreed the death penalty for those who disrespect their parents:
“If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.” – Leviticus 20:9 (NIV)
For those who commit adultery:
”If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.” - Leviticus 20:10 (NIV)
And for anyone you may call on the psychic hotline:
”A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.” – Leviticus 20:26-27 (NIV)
I don't see McDurman rallying around those people being put to death, but he certainly has no problem with Uganda sending gays and lesbians to the death chambers.
In McDurman’s rush to defend hatred, he seems to have overlooked the very things God is said to hate in the verses he's already quoted. Psalms 5 and 26 use the word “evildoers”—which, in the King James Version is translated as “workers of iniquity.” Such people are basically, those who cause trouble. Who is causing trouble in Uganda? Gays and lesbians want to be left alone to live their lives without interference from anyone. It’s the government causing trouble in Uganda by singling out gays and lesbians for special persecution.
"The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty," we're told in Psalm 5:6. Is the Ugandan bill not bloodthirsty at its heart? Certainly one can hate something in this world without leading a bloodthirsty call to rid the world of it. The bloodthirstiness of this legislation ought to be hated by anyone, whether they claim to believe in God or not. The bloodthirsty are not interested in learning from those they hate – they only want destruction. The bloodthirsty are not interested in changing their minds about those they hate, or understanding those they declare to be evil or enemies of God. No, their bloodthirst gets in the way – their taste for vengeance overcomes them. This is why God abhors the bloodthirsty – they act out in anger and hatred with no thought of compassion and love.
It was Jesus who, like Paul, turned the law on its head. In Matthew 5:43-44, he takes the idea of hate being a good thing and puts that notion to rest once and for all:
“You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
Loving our enemies doesn't mean destroying or killing them. It's not a liberal, pantywaist, bedwetting neutering of the Bible to urge people to love one another and treat one another with respect. It was Martin Luther King Jr. who pointed out that while we are commanded to love our enemies, we are not commanded to like them. I have no warm fuzzies for McDurman and his kind, but I am commanded to look upon them with good will and hope that their hearts would one day be softened toward their fellow human beings.
Finally, McDurman touches on the reason why the separation of church and state is such an important facet of our society:
What it comes down to is the question, “Who defines what hate is.” If we accept God’s standards of love and hate, we must follow what His word says about the hate of sin, some sinners, and God’s ways of handling that social doctrine. If, rather, we follow the liberals’ and humanists’ definitions of hate, then we must believe that Christianity spreads hate and that sodomites spread love. We will have no choice but to tolerate sodomy among us as socially acceptable, and teach our children that it’s socially acceptable. It really is as simple as deciding who is in charge of defining social values: God or the humanists.
In McDurman's Christian Reconstructionist world, we'd all be living under Old Testament law, whether we believed in his god or not. However, in a pluralistic society, where freedom from religion is just as important as freedom of religion, it is the society, not the divine deity of some people, that decides what hate is and what is acceptable behavior. McDurman is free to express his “perfect hatred” of that concept—and the rest of society is free to feel revulsion for his hatred, and thank God (or whomever) that he’s not in charge.
Tags: bible, gay, lgbt, old testament, reconstructionist, scripture
We forget that Jesus came to fulfill the law. The edicts of the old testament were often harsh and condemning. Jesus came to teach love, not hate. Barbara A, author of "Cry Depression, Celebrate Recovery:, coming out soon.
Candace, Thank you once again, and God bless you in your work.
I am a gay Catholic, living with my indepedent baptist sister's family. Ok, That says it right there! OY FRIGGIN VEY!!!
For 10 years now since my sister has become a baptist, I have heard the most disgusting, ignorant, abhorrant, pathetic, bigoted bile spew forth from their lips. Everything from the Catholic church, the Presbies, the Lutherans, to my being gay, this one is not a Christian, that church is not a real church, the 'muslim' religion teaches nothing but hate(I was so stunned by that one that I didn't even correct her with the term 'Islam', Bush is a just man....the list goes on & on.
I have become so disgusted by their deluded world view that I want absolutely nothing to do with any of her friends, school, church, anything. I refuse to even say Grace with them.
I have envinced myself that they are indeed "The Christian Taliban". It is absolutely deplorable and blaphemous how these fundies excoriate anyone that does conform to their myopia. The likes of Dobson, Hagee, ROBERTSON esp, Perkins, Warren and all the 'wolves in sheep's clothing', do not promulgate the eternal love of our Lord Jesus the Christ. Instead, they continue to exploit their influences on the sheep for mere political purposes. They are to christianity, as the Taliban is to Islam, Extremists! I hope they still know how to read the KJV....Mat 7, 20-27....Oh, but why bother, they already know the mind of the infinite and eternal Almighty God. Smacks of blasphemy to me. Moreover that, it smacks of Pride to me. Ah, now lets take a look at the sin of pride....such a delicious and devious sin, especially when it is mired under the guise of self-righteousness. Now, what is the punishment for Blasphemy, and Pride against the Father in Heaven??????
Again, whodat! your post only proves my point. It's getting expensive to keep you on the payroll, pal.
Whodat, I was awaiting your convolution to rear its head.
Allow me to pose this querie: Do you presume to know the mind of Almighty God?
I entreat you, my friend. Please, by all means, do RSVP....
Then, by all means read on.
True, Jesus asks us to love our neighbor but He never asked us to accept and love behavior contrary to the natural law or virtue. Even heterosexuals have to struggle against unnatural tendencies. Homosexual behavior is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.
I refer those who suffer this cross to go to Courage ministry: http://www.couragerc.net/
Homosexuality is not a sin. What is condemned in the Old and New Testament is any sexual practice that uses or abuses another person or breaks covenant like adultery.
The Bible speaks no words of condemnation for loving, committed, gay and lesbian relationships. Not one word. Where there is love, there is God. (1 John 4:7-8)
Ex-gay ministries are snake oil salesmen who do more harm in the name of God than they help.
For more info on these scam "ministries" go here:
Truth Wins Out
All these "ex-gay ministries" do is destroy lives and teach gays and lesbians how to hate themselves.
Again, all you anti-gay posters simply prove my point that you hate the "sinner" as much as you hate what you call our "sin."
Candace, I got your back when it comes to the self-righteous.
I have not lied to the world, or anybody since I have exposed myself as a homosexual. As far as your slur goes...there's no need for name calling. As far as that hatred you display...you'd better get a grip on it buddy. It will consume you. And, finally, I don't hate you.
Once again, the point of the article is proven a million fold. Thank you for your service whodat? You are appreciated.
I am sorry Candace, but my Bible seems to proscribe Homosexuality; perhaps you could post what version you use? The Bible is also silent on Insider Trading and Pedophilia, are these then, OK?
It's also silent on corrective lenses, computers and flying - yet, here we are. Such silly questions you ask.
Actually, Captain, the Bible is not entirely silent on insider trading.
We are told not to lend money to a brother at interest.
Some Jews interpreted "brother" to mean only fellow Jews and thus began the banking system by lending at interest to Christians.
Some Italians then interpreted the biblical term "usury" to mean excessive interest and thereby made banking universal.
But if we take the original prohibition at face value as the fundamentalists would have us do then anyone with a bank account is committing a sin.
I think there are other posts here that answer your remark about the Bible proscribing homosexuality. You could also read Candace's book "Bulletproof Faith". (I thought I'd give it a plug since she's too shy)
Paedophilia is a hard one. Girls in the ancient (and not so ancient world) would be expected to marry and have children as soon as they were physically able - often to husbands old enough to be their grandfathers.
My point is that the Bible is a starting point - we can't use it as the sole basis for a moral and legal system. And before anyone says it that was not what Martin Luther meant by "sola scriptura".
You have some old disproven information there, Sapphire. Christianity forced money lending on the Jews who had the same OT we do. The OT bible said usury was a forbidden, vile thing, so the Pope made it illegal for all but the Jews to "handle" money. kinda like they moved the lepers faaaaar away from themselves. They were giving them the lowliest menial job they had on file. This was to cement their uncleanliness and punishment while keeping themselves pure.....alas, greed did finally take over and now priests and holy guys are raking it in hand over fist. The vatican treated Jews with pathological hatred because they "rejected" and denied Christ to Piilate. The Jewish people, themselves did NOT reject Jesus, so, that is not true either. The high priest Caiphas and a minority of the Sanhedrin (the meeting was called late at night so that they managed to keep the reasonable honest priesthood away from the vote taken to get Jesus GONE, by not telling them about it) were the ones who pushed for his execution. The reason they wanted Jesus stopped is precisely because he WAS SO astoundingly popular with the Jews... oh yeah..and then there was that business of overturning the money tables, yelling in the temple.... and threatening the priest's profits. Caiphas hired local rabble rousers to call for the death of Jesus because the pharisees paid them to. But the Jews have been paying for something they never did..... forever!!!!
I confess. I gave a very superficial rendering of a complex subject. My point was not to get at the Jews of Europe but to show that we all tend to take the Bible at face value in some parts but not in others. It was the Christians who quibbled over the definition of "usury" and redefined it to their advantage.
I'm also aware of just how popular Jesus was with the Jews, not only the ordinary people but also many in the Rabbinical tradition and that Caiphas' party was a small minority.
I was trying to demonstrate how unsafe is the haven of conservative exegesis and wrecked my own boat in the process. Take it as an object lesson.
And accept my apologies if I caused offence.
I'm shocked to know there is a phrase "a Christian who happens to be a lesbian." If you can lace your article with scriptures against self-righteousness then why can't you recant the many scriptures about homosexuality? I would be scared out of my mind to call myself a Christian who happens to be a lesbian. There is no fear of God in someone that believes this. Sin is not something you become friends with or fall in love with. You run from sin, you don't bind yourself to it. I'm afraid of you.
Actually there are no scriptures about homosexuality.
If you are a Christian and can say there are no scriptures in the Bible on the subject of homosexuality, then I'm done. You are right and I am wrong. But just for kicks, how about reading the Bible just one more time and see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Who am I? Secondly, don't ask for anyone's opinion either, just take the Word face value.
Dear Pergranto1: I think what was meant by the statement that there are no Scriptural statements about "homosexuality" is that our understanding of homosexuality and what it means to be gay -- just like countless other social, political, and religious issues of human life -- is different today than what any understanding of human sexuality was when when the Scriptures were written.
Let me give you another example: Slavery. There is nothing in Sacred Scripture that says it's not OK for one person to own another human being; slavery was part of the social context and accepted as part of the way the world worked throughout both the OT and NT -- and for many, many centuries thereafter. Throughout history, countless Christians owned other humans as slaves -- slaves who were both Christians and non-Christians. However, is there anyone who would claim today that slavery is OK? Is there any Christian today who would say it's OK for one person to own wholly and completely the body, mind, soul and even offspring of another human person?
Of course not! And why not? Because when we engage our faith in all its elements -- what we have received (which is the literal meaning of "tradition"), and the context and experience of our own lives -- we realize that we can grow, develop and mature in that faith in ways that our forebears might not have been challenged to do. The Christian understanding of the morality of slavery has evolved and developed over time. (Another example would be usury.)
Sacred scripture has a few references to same-sex genital activity; but when these are read in context and their fuller meaning is seen, no scripture scholar worth his/her salt would say that such references refer to homosexuality as we understand that today.
If you see this post, I really, really pray that you see I am trying to respond in a thoughtful, respectful, and loving way. None of us have all the answers, but those of us who are both Christian and created gay by a loving God sincerely hope that "the Christ in you" can see "the Christ in me" and love one another as the children of God that we are.
I disagree wholeheartedly with you. Slavery as we know it in America was awful and the effects of it are still being felt today. God was not pleased with the American styled form of slavery.
Sure slavery has been around for years but whenever it got out of hand God stepped in and put an end to it as in the story of Moses freeing the children of Israel out of the bonds of Pharaoh.
This is not to mention the slavery of sin which is why God sent Jesus. In his eyes the worst slavery ever exhibited on this earth is still no comparison to the end result of living a sinful life. This is the only reason Jesus has any value to all of humanity is to rid us of the plight of sin.
You say God created gay well why don't gays ever say the devil created gay? You guys never say that. I'm sure Satan is ok with gay activity. Isn't Satan the great tempter? He is the one that is the master of deception, not God. Satan has power too you know.
If it feels natural to be gay then isn't it also a natural feeling to cheat, murder, steal, divorce, lie, etc. It's all natural feeling right? What is the difference? It's all an individual choice and decision, no different from voting for Martha Coakley or Scott Brown. You just decide.
The last time I checked my Bible it says that God gives us the choice to choose. He said I set before you life or death....choose life. Isn't that what he said? The bottom line is your choice.
My last point is gays have a tendency to always make their opposition against people but never against God. Isn't he where the real battle is? He was the one that set the standard and so you should talk to Him and try and change his mind because I am not going to cosign with you. That makes me an owner and I can't be an owner because I simply believe what he purposely said in his Bible.
Honestly, where to start. So many misconceptions here and just false things about gays and lesbians.
First off, I'm not sure you understand just how painful it is to have an integral part of your life compared to harmful things like cheating, murder, divorce, etc. These are things that harm society - that break covenant that leave people dead and hurting. To compare the love I have for my partner to such things is truly, truly heartbreaking. What if I compared your love for an opposite sex partner to prostitution, or murder, or gang rape, or some other socially destructive behavior?
Homosexuality, in and of itself, is not harmful to society. Any sexuality that is abused harms society - heterosexuals do it all the time with prostitution, one night stands, rape, pedophilia, etc. Heterosexuals do these things in greater numbers than homosexuals simply because statistically they out number us. So, to draw from your logic, then, heterosexuality is harmful because it CAN result in these behaviors, and in larger numbers than homosexual behaviors.
See how ridiculous that is?
Loving, committed, gay and lesbian relationships do no harm to society and in fact, as the Prop 8 trial in California is showing, actually helps society in many ways.
Why in the world would we say that Satan created gays and lesbians? Satan creates chaos in creation - Satan does not create out of nothing like God does. God created human beings, not Satan, so it's ludicrous to even ask why we would credit Satan with creating anything human. God creates, not Satan.
And to your last point - our opposition comes from people, not from God. We don't fight with God over this issue because we understand that God has created us this way and calls it good. The only ones calling it bad are people - so we contend with the people who misunderstand, who consign us to hell because of how they read the Bible, and hate us and use God to justify that hatred.
The Bible is not a big "how-to" book. If you walk away from the Bible with more answers than questions, you've misunderstood it from front to back.
I hope you understand that your words have power and every time you compare the love between gay and lesbian couples to murder, etc., you hurt people - you cause discord and strife - and these are things clearly condemned in the Bible.
Are there immoral homosexuals? You bet, but there are far more immoral heterosexuals on the planet, and yet you don't seem to be out there preaching to them about their immorality. Why do gays and lesbians get singled out - just because you personally find us icky?
The bottom line is, those who love have God, no matter what their sexual orientation.
And another thing - I HAVE chosen life. If I could not have made peace between my relationship to God and my sexuality, I would be dead. Too many of my brothers and sisters are dead because they believe the lies you tell about gays and lesbians and how God hates them.
If you want to choose life, my friend, help gays and lesbians come to full acceptance of who God has made them to be - otherwise you are helping to make a choice of death for them.
How anyone can sleep at night knowing how deeply their words harm others is really, truly, beyond me.
Aren't you really saying as long as it's not hurting anybody it's ok? I mean isn't that the gist of your comments? This is the same battle we're having with legalizing drugs. They have the same sticking point, I'm not hurting anybody so it can't be wrong.
Listen, I'm not your problem and don't want to be. If you believe you were born gay then that's you. I have a problem when you say God created you this way.
Who told you that? Where is the person that told YOU this? Where did you get that from? Did God speak to you and tell you this? Did he say this in the Bible? If so show me.
Where in the Bible does God say he created same sex preference? Where did he call it good as you say? Where is your proof that he is in agreement with that? It doesn't matter that millions are in harmony with this but if you say God is supportive of gays, then show me explicitly in the Bible.
Show me how a Christian can happen to be a lesbian. Show me scriptures. I don't want your opinion because you say I have an opinion. So show me scriptures.
I can easily show you numerous scriptures against same sex affairs. Again, that's why I say your battle is with God and not people.
Are there immoral homosexuals? What?
All you can show me from scripture about same-sex relations are things having to do with ritual sex (Leviticus and Romans), sexually abusing others (1 Corinthians, Romans, 1 Timothy), and other forms of sexual abuse. You cannot show me anything in the Bible that condemns loving, committed, same-sex relationships. Not one verse.
As for affirmation, all I need to know is that where there is love, there is God. (1 John 4:16) God created same-sex attraction because God created human beings. God created our nature, therefore he created us completely from hair color, to handedness, to sexual orientation.
If you ask gay and lesbian people about when they realized they were gay, to a person, they tell a story of always knowing they were "different" somehow. I knew I was different at the age of five or six when I just knew I liked girls better than boys. It wasn't sexualized at that point, but I always knew that I had some manner of attraction toward other girls.
Homosexuality occurs in nature - in God's nature - so it is created.
The Bible was written by ancient men who had no clue about sexual orientation. These are men who believed that the whole matter of a baby was in the male sperm and the woman was only an incubator. They wrote from a world view that saw the world as having four corners - they didn't even know they lived on a globe. And they're going to tell us, in our modern day, about the concept of sexual orientation?
Give me a break.
This is the mistake literalists make by basing their views on "tell me a Bible verse to back it up or else you're full of crap." I know you don't follow everything in the Bible - nobody does because it's impossible. The book contradicts itself in many places so you'd put yourself in a pretzel trying to use it as some literal guide.
The bottom line is - gays and lesbians are born that way - and I believe, without a doubt, that it is God's design. The Bible never contradicts that - and never condemns sexual relations between two loving partners of the same gender.
And again, my battle is not with God. God isn't debating me on the subject - you are.
This is what you said:
The Bible was written by ancient men who had no clue about sexual orientation. These are men who believed that the whole matter of a baby was in the male sperm and the woman was only an incubator. They wrote from a world view that saw the world as having four corners - they didn't even know they lived on a globe. And they're going to tell us, in our modern day, about the concept of sexual orientation?
I rest my case. You have an issue with the Bible and God.
There is no need to respond back because I'm not your problem. You quoted those scriptures not me....so live with God's decision.
And from here on tell the truth. Tell people what the Bible says but then say you disagree with what it says. Isn't this more honest?
I don't disagree with the Bible, because I read it in context. I disagree with what YOU think it says. That is more honest.
What is your context version of those scriptures...Associate Pastor?
I didn't give you my opinions of any scripture. You gave those scriptures so please share with me.
I'm open for a different perspective as long as it does not disrespect the Word as you did before saying it was written by men that don't understand gays.
You must understand you aren't the first gay that has walked the face of the earth. There were many gays back in Bible days. What's so different today? Nothing has changed with people. Times have changed but people are the same.
We start from two different places about scripture, so there will be little to no common ground for us to share, so we can either continue to not connect with each other in any way and continue to harden our hearts toward one another or we can agree to disagree and move on with our lives.
I cannot prove anything to you because you already believe that I have no knowledge to share with you. So, continuing this conversation would be like beating our heads against a wall.
I do invite you to read my book, Bulletproof Faith, however, because you'll see that I'm taking my own advice and walking away from an abusive situation. You are right in your own mind and I am right in mine. I have no power to convince you that you are wrong, and you have no power to convince me that I am wrong. We can continue a pointless conversation or we can stop. I choose to stop. I bid you a blessed life.
I didn't say you didn't have any knowledge to share. I'm sitting here waiting on you to share FROM THE WORD where God says he created gays and said it was good. Tell me. I want to learn something today.
Why is it so hard for you to say you disagree with the Bible? Where are your scriptures that say God created gay? I'm still waiting for them.
Well, so much for my attempt to engage in a thoughtful and mutually respectful discussion!
Candace has already responded to much of the hateful things you've written about gays and lesbians, so let me respond to two egregious points you've made -- one historical, the other theological.
Historical point: My statements about slavery are not open to "agreeing" or "disagreeing." They are points of history that slavery -- and by this I mean the literal definition where one person legally owns another person (and not any metaphorical meaning like "slavery to sin" or "slave to fashion") -- has existed throughout most of the world's history. Not only did slavery exist in Israelite society after their own flight from Egypt, it existed in most societies and cultures in the centuries afterward (in fact, it was legal in Bolivia until 1888). But now, no modern society sees slavery as acceptable, legal, or moral. I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting that slavery could "get out of hand." Does this mean there were times in history when slavery was not "out of hand," and therefore acceptable (either to humanity or to God)? If these thoughts are too complex for you, let me make it simple: Human understanding of the morality of slavery changed and evolved over time; the same can and does happen for other issues, including homosexuality.
Theological point: Your statement that gay people never say "the devil created gay" tells me you have no understanding of the fundamental tenets of Christianity or of the many heresies that Christianity considers anathema. To suggest that the "devil" could "create" anything is contrary to Christian belief. God Alone is the Author of creation -- ALL creation, including God's gay and lesbian children.
I don't know where your heart and conscience are but, No Peregrant01, it does NOT feel "natural" to most people to "cheat, murder, steal, divorce, lie, etc." When I sin, my conscience tells me I have done wrong, and I seek forgiveness and try to make amends. Being gay, and expressing that being in ways that are loving and giving, is nothing whatsoever like the sins you have enumerated.
Peace!
If someone already mentioned this resource, I apologize, but I highly recommend "Slaves, Women and Homosexuals" by William Webb.
Which Bible am I to take at face value? One of the modern translations that says "Don't be a homosexual, God hates that" or a direct translation of the Hebrew (if that were possible) which says something more like "Do not lie with mankind in the place of a woman's lying down for that is bad ritual". Or something in between?
All our reading of the ancient texts is conditioned by someone's opinion, starting with the translator and finishing with our own cultural stance.
And I have read the Bible quite a few times. I had to study it pretty closely for my theology degree. There are some texts relating to homosexual rape, to ritual same sex prostitution and to orgiastic rituals connected to the "Lord of Misrule". These do not speak of loving committed relationships between couples of the same sex.
There is only one story which, on a doubtful translation, can be said to refer a same sex relationship and that has a positive comment to make. I shall not quote it - the reference really is rather doubtful.
Perfect love casts out fear. God has cast out my fear and affirmed me in both my faith and my sexuality.
I guess what saddens me most is that you're shocked by a Christian who happens to be a lesbian but not shocked at the unadulterated hatred being purveyed by this man in God's name.
That, to me, would be the true shock.
where is the hatred? how do you know I am a man? Why can't I be a devout Christian woman with strong beliefs? I'll ask you the same question...show me in the Bible I don't care which translation you prefer where God says a Christian can be a lesbian?
I'm not the problem I'm just wanting clarification. If you can clarify for me where in the Bible God says being gay is ok then I'll write this website's next post affirming that you guys converted me.
The problem with people that say they are Christian and gay is they have issues with God. Nobody or nothing else matters. You and God simply disagree.
I wasn't calling YOU a man - I was referring to the man I wrote the piece about. Remember him?
Please, don't get so defensive.
It's typical when literalists get into a corner to keep repeating things that have already been refuted, so I won't stoop to repeating my refutations. Reread if you need clarification.
Simply, we were born this way. I pray God that people would stop using that vacous, baseless assertion that it is a choice. We have no say in the matter as does a child born with cystic fibrous, a child born with AIDS, a person born with dark skin. It is simply part of our genetic makeup.
See the problem I have with that is you guys have no proof. Anyone can draw comfort in a multitude of like minded individuals. Just do and say what they say.
My problem is when a Christian says they happen to be a lesbian and says God created them gay...I like others are going to say prove it in the WORD. Isn't the Word of God final authority in a Christian's life?
Again I say your argument is with God. You don't like the fact that he wrote many scriptures against your lifestyle.
Now if you're not a Christian I don't condemn your lifestyle, I only implore you to give your life to Christ. A sinner needs to be saved FIRST above all.
But for someone that says they are a Christian that happens to be gay, I ask are we reading from the same book?
You have not given one shred of proof from the Bible that God did not create some people to love their own sex or both sexes.
All you have done is to say that it is there so I shall challenge you to prove your point with original scriptures and not late translations which owe more to the followers of Augustine than to the followers of Jesus or indeed of Yahweh.
Candace has quoted the usual ones and the traditional translations of those were refuted a long time ago. We know that they had nothing to do with same sex relationships. Try studying the originals and the commentaries of the ancient Rabbis who lived with the writers.
Show me a scripture that states unequivocally and in the original language that an emotional, romantic and physical relationship between two people of the same sex is wrong.
An emotional, romantic, and physical relationship between two people of the same sex sounds like LUST...eros. Most of us know what lust feels like. It's when we want something that is off limits and that tempting lustful feeling comes over us to go ahead and go after it anyway....but it's WRONG! We know it's wrong.
Are you a Christian? I mean a born again Christian that can recall an exact date that you gave your life to Christ? You don't sound like one. You sound like a carnal minded person that has not been converted...even reprobate at that.
Where is your proof in the Bible that God says a Christian can happen to be gay and he created it that way? Again I say you guys have issues with God denouncing gay activity in the scriptures and want the rest of the world to politick your agenda in God's face. There is not strength in numbers when God has already given his plan on how humans should live. You lose this fight in the end.
1. "An emotional, romantic, and physical relationship" sounds alot like love to me. Lust on the other hand is overwhelming sexual desire. Let us not confuse the distinction between love and lust.
2. Where is YOUR proof that it says a homosexual cannot accept the grace of Our Lord Jesus the Christ and live by HIS laws, that HE hath given unto us from the Father in Heaven?
Like Candace, I give up and leave you to your prejudices.
There is nothing in the Bible denouncing same sex love (including a physical expression of that love).
There is also nothing in the Bible that says a Christian has to be able to recall a date and time - that's a recent invention.
There are no winners because there is no fight. If you enjoy name calling - go ahead but I gave that up in Primary School.
I'm someone who once believed the "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing. I think it's possible, but it requires a level of maturity that is very hard.
I think in practice many weaker people will end up hating the sin.
You're quite right about the 'reconstructionists' basing their law on the Old Testament. I note that the OT, with it's political laws was given to ancient Israel. Saying it also applies to Uganda or the USA is problematic.
Go you :-)
PS: Your readers might enjoy this.
Thank you, Jonathan!
The peace about little crazy nutjob Pat whasthisface, Robertson? absolutely made my day.
Remember Jerry Falwell? That was another kook that might be enjoying fiery flames now... Pat better think of necessity of salvation, before his time here expires..
you can write about whatever, but when someone is verbally abused and insulted, you never stood up for them or protected them..you had an attitude at them instead.
and you are the one wearing the collar.
Excuse me? I've spent my entire life standing up and defending the insulted - especially the LGBT community who lives with insults and abuse every day.
I haven't a clue what you're talking about.
No, I'd have to disagree with you on that. I just returned to this post to respond to an individual who took such great pride in calling me a "LIAR", and "Faggot"(oh, how I ahbor that disgusting epithet). As I don't know the source of this person's emnity, bigotry, and hatred, I didn't know how to respond. I prayed about it, because at first I was intent on rebuking him/her for their ignorantly hateful remarks. After all, they do not know me, or my relationship with Our Lord the Christ. Finally, I decided by God's grace that I would just tell them that I will keep them close in my daily prayers and thoughts. It is useless to try and have intelligent and philosophical discourse with them. I've learned a long time ago that some things you just have to 'Let go, and Let GOD."
Much to my surprise, this morning, I find that all of the submissions by that person have been retracted. I suspect that they he/she have been banned.
With that, I would say that Candace has done the polite and correct thing. She, in a sense, has stood up for me.
You know, it is always fascinating to me that 'Christians' who preach judgment and hate always revert to the OT for their bible quotes - as if Jesus simply absorbed this story of ancient Semitic tribes out there in the desert. This of course is fundamentalism, and Jesus was certainly no fundamentalist when it comes to the OT.
The gospels preach love without judgment - woe to you who judge when you harbor the sin of anti-love and anti-inclusiveness in your own soul. Even a woman caught in adultery is closer to God than the religious leaders/preachers/televangelists of the time. Yes, even a Roman centurion and his son!
It would be easier to bother to even listen to these people if we saw them do the real thing Jesus commanded - love, love love. And then, he made clear the 3 steps that need be made in order to be a follower -- first, go and sell your possessions; second, give your money to the poor; third, and only after the first two, come follow me.
It is so much easier to judge 'sexual sin,' which Jesus does not address all that much except in the context of infidelity, than the entire orientation of the gospels -- which is love, justice, the relinquishment of wealth and possessions, inclusiveness, as in, the end of all discriminations and prejudices. If those who judge sexual orientation, which is not gospel-based, were living in poverty and community and service, doing Matthew 25 and living Luke's beatitudes and woes, we might at least be able to have a conversation about such things.
Natural law. Oh, give me a break. Homosexuality exists in nature, therefore is also natural. And therefore, it is also sacred.
Candace, you know this, I'm sure. Wherever you hear judgment and condemnation, nothing of God or the sacred is there. Where you hear and experience love, friendship, inclusion - not love for you in spite of your orientation, but loving you in that orientation, in the entirety of your identity, there God or the divine or the sacred or the true meaning and value of life surely dwells.
Thank you, Margaret. Wise words.
In my sermon research today, I read these words in the New Interpreter's Bible for Luke 4:16-30 as Jesus taught in the temple in Galilee:
"Not only is this scene paradigmatic of Jesus' life and ministry, but it is also a reminder that God's grace is never subject to the limitations and boundaries of any nation, church, group or race. Those who would exclude others thereby exclude themselves ... we are never free to set limits on who may receive that grace. [...] How much more might God be able to do with us if we were ready to transcend the boundaries of community and limits of love that we ourselves have erected?"
Amen.
OMG!!!! Margaret, I don't know you, but still....I love you! Spoken like a true Christian my dear! Finally, Thank You Lord Jesus, someone has got the hint!!!
We can "prove" anything by quoting the Bible carelessly. For instance: "...Judas went off and hanged himself" (Matt.27 and Acts1) "Jesus said: Go and do likewise" (in the story of the "Good Samaritan". God's Word isn't some kind of magic, or a list of "do's and don'ts". It's a dynamic story about a People's relationship with God, a relationship that changed and grew and found different understandings. To treat "The Word" with respect means to me, to read it with understanding of the oral traditions and communities that created it, and the people who collected the traditions into written form. It deeply pains me when people select verses they can use to oppress other people, and call it "God's Will".
Thank You, Our point exactly! Read my previous submission to this string. I rejoice in knowing that there are other intelligent Christians such as yourself out there. For awhile, I felt so alone.
Amen.
You are so right.
And if anyone wants to know more about how the Bible as we have it came into being and how the Scriptures were treated and used (and sometimes abused) by the ancient Rabbis, by Jesus and his followers and even by Islam, then I can recommend "The Bible - The Biography" by Karen Armstrong.
As one reviewer said "you'll read (the Bible) again with fresh eyes." And I'd add "a new respect".
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