Catholic Bishops Throw Cold Water on Ice Bucket Challenge

Bishops in two Catholic dioceses are discouraging parishioners from participating in the popular “ice bucket challenge” that has raised $30 million for ALS research because of concerns that some of the money raised for the charity would go toward fetal stem cell research.

Bishop Charles Thompson of Evansville, IL, warned parishioners:

In the past week, it has come to light that the primary beneficiary of the Ice Bucket Challenge is an organization that is, by its own admission, funding at least one study that involves embryonic stem-cell research. Such research is against the teaching of the Church, which respects and honors the dignity and life of every person—from conception to natural death. … As a result, the Diocese of Evansville will not approve participation in the Ice Bucket Challenge as it currently occurs.

The Archdiocese of Cincinnati, which has been forcing all Catholic school teachers to sign a “morality clause” pledging to abide by all the teachings of the church in their public and private lives, told principals to give money from the challenge—which requires an individual to dump a bucket of ice water on their head or give $100 to the ALS Association—to another charity instead. He recommended the John Paul II Medical Research Institute, which does research only on adult stem cell lines.

The Washington Post is reporting that concerns about fetal stem cell research were first raised by the anti-abortion group American Life League (ALL), which gave the ALS Association a negative rating because it funds one study using embryonic stem cells, and spread by Fr. Michael Duffy on his Patheos blog. ALL is also behind the effort to defund various community-based nonprofits participating in the Catholic Campaign for Human Development that have any association with organizations that support same-sex marriage.

The ALS Association isn’t the first nonprofit to find itself under suspicion from the bishops and conservatives over remote links to supposedly anti-life causes. Conservative Catholics have been conducting a campaign against the Girl Scouts that has resulted in a number of troops being kicked out of their church homes because the national organization is a member of the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, an international organization that supports access to contraception.

Conservatives have also ginned up charges of links to Planned Parenthood and pro-abortion leanings that the national Girl Scouts USA organization, which takes no position on abortion or contraception, denies.

In April, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops completed a one-year “official inquiry” into the Girl Scouts that found many of the charges baseless. The bishops praised the Girl Scouts organization for its transparency and willingness to revise materials and concluded that it should be up to local bishops whether or not Girl Scout troops are allowed to use church facilities and recommended a “memorandum of understanding” between troops and churches on allowable programming. However, the national organization noted that it did not prevent local troops from “taking a position or sponsoring programming on human sexuality” if parents approved.

Patricia Miller is the author of Good Catholics: The Battle over Abortion in the Catholic Church. Her work on the intersection of sex, religion, and politics has appeared in The Nation, Ms., and Huffington Post. She was the editor of Conscience magazine and the editor-in-chief of the National Journal’s health care briefings.

  • Gregory Peterson

    Apparently to those bishops, a blastocyst with two hundred cells or so is so much more important than people with 37 trillion cells of so prematurely dying of ALS.

  • Vince

    Not more important. Just equally as important.

  • cranefly

    Advising people to spend their money differently is a perfectly civilized action for moral teachers (right or wrong) to take. I have a hard time being mad about that one.

    The six-degrees-from-gay-rights-or-family-planning game they’re playing is pretty ill-conceived and unnecessary, though, even by Catholic standards. If the bishops are attacking the Girl Scouts, they’re far beyond giving a flying f~ck about the Church’s reputation for misogyny.

  • Gail Finke

    Wow. Talk about a biased article. “Ginned up” controversy, charities “under suspicion,” “remote links to anti-life causes”… Could the author be any more contemptuous and dismissive of things she does not happen to agree with? The ALS Association gave half a million dollars to a research group that uses embryonic stem cells — cells taken from human beings conceived in a laboratory and then killed to use their cells for experiments. Ms. Miller may have no qualms about the immorality embryonic stem cell research but but the Catholic Church does. All bishops are doing (and in the case of Cincinnati, the bishop has not said anything — last I heard, a superintendent of schools wasn’t a bishop) is saying that official Catholic groups cannot support any organization that conducts or pays for such studies (even “only one” study, as some people have pointed out of the ASLA). This is common sense, not a conspiracy. The ALSA has reaped tens of millions over the past month. Surely other research organizations also getting money is a good thing, and one that does not harm the ALS Association in any way (dumping water over your head is not a contract!). People can give their own money to any charity they wish to give it to. There is nothing at all bad going on.

  • joeyj1220

    If you think that “potential human life” is as important as actual human life, then your moral compass is askew.

  • Jim Reed

    Plus when you visit a barber shop the barber kills thousands of hair cells taken from human beings, and throws them in the trash, or sells them for God knows what kind of purposes. Each of those cells has an encoding of your unique DNA.

  • Gail Finke

    I get the feeling you think you have made a point here. Human hair is not made of stem cells of any kind. Moreover, it is not alive and thus can’t be killed. The Catholic Church does not have any problem with anyone using it for any purpose. If you want to make sarcastic comments based on science and anti-religious sentiment, I suggest you learn science and religious doctrine first.

  • Gail Finke

    Once a person is conceived, he or she is alive. “Potential human life” mean a sperm and egg that have a possibility of coming together. If they do, they are an “actual human life.” The moment the sperm and egg that created you combined, you began to exist. If anyone stopped your development at any time, it would have killed YOU — just as much when you were two days or two weeks or two months gestation as if someone killed you now. To say that an embryo is a “potential baby” makes no more sense than calling a baby a “potential teen” or a teen a “potential old person.” From conception to death, a person is a person.

  • Jim Reed

    A stem cell is not the same thing as a person. There is no cell in the body, dead or alive, that is the same as a person.

    Also, science and religious doctrines are kind of opposites.

  • Gail Finke

    A) Embryonic stem cells come from embryos that are killed.
    B) No they’re not, but even if they were my point is that you should know them before you attempt to be sarcastic about them. Hair cells are not alive and the Catholic Church doesn’t say they can’t be used for experiments, so your attempt at sarcasm fails because you are wrong about both the science and the doctrine.

  • Jim Reed

    An embryo is not the same as a person either.

  • Gail Finke

    You’re changing the subject. But yes, it is a person. You used to be an embryo, and that embryo was you — not “potentially” you. If someone had killed you as an embryo, you would be dead.

  • Jim Reed

    If someone killed your ancestors, you would be dead too, but you are not the same as your ancestors.

  • Jim Reed

    Life is a cycle of many stages. The embryo needs to implant correctly, and grow. After it has divided and redivided into millions of cells, it must form a heart, and a brain, and nervous system, and bones, and grow some more, and eventually thousands of parts develop to the point where it can live outside the womb. There actually is no exact point where a new human comes into being. That concept is a theological one, primarily for dividing out those who don’t accept the word of the religion. All the stages of human life are exactly the same as the stages of thousands of other species and kinds, but we don’t think of frogs as a new frog being at conception because they are not a part of our religions.

  • Vince

    Well they don’t see it as a potential human life but as a human life. We’ll agree to disagree. Let me ask you something, though. What do you think of Pamela Anderson objecting to the ice bucket challenge because they test on animals?

  • Vince

    “We don’t think of frogs as a new frog being at conception.” Well speak for yourself.

  • Gregory Peterson

    What I understand is that zygotes are not people. People don’t have a couple of hundred cells. People can’t be frozen in liquid helium and then thawed out. People can’t just split in to two or more people.

    What I understand is an all male power hierarchy which discriminates against women and sexual minorities.

    What I understand is that aging male hierarchy is using extreme and calloused comparisons of living people with zygotes as equals in personhood…controlling people’s sexuality and fertility to perpetuate discrimination and its tawdry fantasy of a patriarchal status quo ante.

    What I understand is that all male hierarchy is using it’s extreme callousness and insanity to keep people with genetic diseases, such as myself, from research which may better treat, or even cure us.

  • Jim Reed

    I think we are all doing that.

  • Corey

    Some Catholic Bishops Against Ice Bucket Challenge: Stem Cells. They Come Out Against Their Child Rapists? NOT!

  • apotropoxy

    Note to Roman Catholics:
    With stem cell research, those little fetal souls will fly unto the arms of Jesus and never avoid the risk of eternity in the hell your loving god established for them. Think of it as a sacrament.

  • apotropoxy

    As attractive as your position is, it still amounts to non sequitur.

  • cranefly

    Depends on how far back you go into Catholic orthodoxy and how literally you take the requirement of baptism. I think Augustine took the view that, had they been among the elect, they would have been predestined to live until baptism. The official modern teaching is that there is hope for them, not that we know for sure what happens to them.

    Some saints and popes have taught that infants who die pre-baptism get the top rung of hell.

  • pennyroyal

    all hail the sacred embryo, lurking in its frozen nitrogen state, never to waken until its progenitor’s life ends and the excess (30,000 plus) frozen ‘snowflakes’ are discarded. My husband has Parkinson’s disease and millions of people have Alzheimer’s disease and you pro lifers would condemn millions to a life of suffering for your idiotic moral superiority. Morally, each living breathing human being develops their own morality and doesn’t need your obscene doctrine forced down their throats. My husband can scarcely swallow. Do you care?

  • pennyroyal

    a false tautology–
    an embryo has no consciousness so it is not in any sense a person, a living, breathing person embedded in a community. Do you know how many embryos are frozen, forgotten, discarded as outdated, thawed and thrown out by a power loss.

    How can a so-called pro lifer sleep at night with so much to consume them with worry? Haven’t you got better things to do with your life that be a god-botherer? Your lot are as bad as the JWs or the Mormons, infesting our private space.

  • pennyroyal

    Jim, I always like coming across your name. You are more polite than I am and probably more effective. I admire that.

  • pennyroyal

    that is a statement of doctrine from your particular church. You cannot write that into law, though the paramount right-to-life legislation would do just that: woman who doesn’t even know she’s pregnant yet=nothing.

    Bunch of squishy cells made up of the chance meeting of sperm and egg=total control of its host’s life. If that isn’t a draconian and a monstrous argument, what is??

  • Jim Reed

    My dad had late onset Parkinson’s. It was a rapid and accelerating decline. The last couple years were hard on my mom.

  • Gail Finke

    I care. I am so sorry to hear about your husband, I’m sure I can’t imagine what it is like for your whole family.

    I’m not being morally superior, I’m just being moral. it is never okay to do wrong in order to achieve a good goal. The fact that embryos are created and destroyed by their own parents is wrong. Experimenting on them is a further wrong, it doesn’t make the creation and destruction of embryos somehow “right.”
    No one is saying not to research a cure for ALS or Parkinsons or cancer or MS or anything else. No one is saying not to do stem cell research a stem cell. All I and others are saying is that embryonic stem cell research is wrong for any purpose. That’s not “obscene,” it is just true. It’s science. When a human egg and a sperm unite, a new human life begins. No amount wishing it otherwise can make alter that scientific fact. What’s obscene is people creating and throwing away or freezing their own children.

    Embryonic stem cell research has never cured anything — in fact, rampant tumor growth is one sure outcome of it. Scarce research dollars are better spent on experiments that are likely to work. Anyone who says that embryonic stem cell research is likely to cure anything is not telling the truth. And anyone who says that they care more about you because they are willing to kill a human being — at any stage — is lying.

  • pennyroyal

    my condolences on your father’s illness and rapid decline. It’s hard on adult children, too.
    I am in your Mom’s position now but he is doing well. Critics and ideological purists like Gail Finke have no clue how awful this can be. IMO they think in the abstract. My 90-year-old mother is in a nursing home and I don’t have the luxury of abstractions and ideology. For me it’s practical theology all the way.

  • phatkhat

    I’m sure she doesn’t. It’s gawd’s will. {{{shudder}}}

    Reading Gail’s posts really makes me miss the downvote button.

  • phatkhat

    Downvote!!!!!!!

  • phatkhat

    Thanks! Made my day! And sooooooo true!

  • pennyroyal

    no you are being morally superior by privileging your views, your religious beliefs above mine. I’m a minister and have studied views on abortion around the world. Why should your conservative views hold sway when this is a diverse country?

    The lies in your post are your language. It is obscene to the point of zealotry to care only for a fetus or zygote when there are millions of human beings, born and embedded in families in dire need of your help. Your view is terminally narrow. And the lies are all yours and won’t wash here unless there is someone else here as way out as you.

  • pennyroyal

    you assume readers are less informed on science than you are?? your ignorance and biased comments shows you learned only enough science to make a fool of yourself.

  • pennyroyal

    my child free friends make a joke about masturbation ‘killing’ millions of potential souls. Must keep the anti-choicers up at night thinking of guys ‘spilling their seed’ /the “sin of Onanism”. Some people have too much time on their hands….

  • sleepingquail

    “respects and honors the dignity and life of every person—from conception to natural death.” Why is the Catholic Church in the Hospital business?

  • cgosling

    Catholic Bishops make fools of themselves again complaining about ice buckets and medical research while they condone anti birth control policies which cause starvation, overpopulation, and disease. Intelligent Catholics ignore stupid church policy and practice birth control.

  • cgosling

    Vince – You got it wrong. The definition of death is no brain activity. A fertilized egg does not have a brain or nervous system, therefore is not yet a human life. In case you did not know, most human pregnancies (60 plus percent), are naturally aborted. Who else to blame but the Creator?

  • cgosling

    Gail, you swallowed a policy that makes no sense. An acorn has the potential to become and oak tree, but you certainly don’t believe it is an oak tree, or do you?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Downvote her anyway. The button still works. They just do not count the downvotes for us anymore.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    The Roman Catholic Church contends otherwise where liability and money is concerned.
    A ZEF is a person only when diminishing and harassing women is the matter of concern in the RCC.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/

    Canon City, Colorado (CNN) — Life begins at conception, according to the Catholic Church, but in a wrongful death suit in Colorado, a Catholic health care company has argued just the opposite.

    A fetus is not legally a person until it is born, the hospital’s lawyers have claimed in its defense. And now it may be up to the state’s Supreme Court to decide.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    No thank you. I will have sex. I will use contraception. If I become pregnant, I will give birth or abort as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit. Not as the RCC sees fit.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Tell me, if you order fried chicken and the waitress brings you fried eggs and charges you the fried chicken price, do you pay it? Would you pay it?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I try not to think of Pamela Anderson. The huge fake boobs skeeve me.

  • irene adler

    that’s just…

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Woman says she wants to talk sense. Let us see if she responds.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I thought it was straight to the point.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Have you noticed that authoritarian religious and most Repubs are not at all interested in what is just? Or even lawful.

  • Martha Murphy

    I think the bishops should dump buckets of ice on their heads.

  • Lamont Cranston

    I think the bishops and priests should dump buckets of ice down their pants to help repress their perverted desires.

  • Vince

    It’s a change of subject that has nothing to do with this one.

  • Vince

    A new human life is formed at conception. Nobody’s saying that genetic diseases shouldn’t be treated or cured, just that it should be done ethically, like through adult stem cell research. Even if there was no federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, people would still be able to fund it privately. The Catholic Church and people like me have the right to NOT donate money to ESCR; we’re not harming you by doing that.
    So again, what’s your opinion on those like Pamela Anderson who oppose research done through animal testing? If you agree with her, then you’re being somewhat hypocritical.

  • Vince

    How is that doctrine from a church? It sounds scientifically correct to me. You have the same DNA now as you did when you were just conceived. Therefore, you’re the same organism as you were then.
    It’s hardly draconian or monstrous to carry a baby to term. Abortion is draconian and monstrous.

  • Vince

    First of all, the eggs that we eat AREN’T FERTILIZED. Therefore, they’re not unborn chickens.
    I have a question for you. If you order beef and the waitress brings you veal, do you pay for it? Veal is beef, so, according to your logic, you should have to pay for it.

  • Vince

    There is an organization called Secular Pro-Life, made up of pro-life ATHEISTS. It’s not just a religious issue.

  • Vince

    If the life of an oak tree was considered equal to that of a human, then, yes, an acorn would have to be respected just as much as the oak tree. However, trees are not humans, so it’s irrelevant.

  • Vince

    “The definition of death is no brain activity.” So then a fertilized egg is dead? How can something dead grow into something living?
    I don’t believe in a creator. I’m an atheist. Morally, there’s a difference between death as the result of nature and death as the result of human action.

  • Vince

    If you abort and feel no shame afterward, then you have no soul. Abortion is a totally selfish act.

  • Vince

    According to that logic, people should kill young children because those children will go to heaven. Please think before talking out your ass.

  • Vince

    I have no problem with birth control, just abortion.

  • Vince

    Uh, because they honor the dignity and life of every person from conception to natural death. You just answered your own question.

  • Vince

    Nice try, but hair is not alive. Only the follicle is alive. Secondly, a follicle is NOT a distinct human organism. It is PART of a human being. If you kill my hair follicle, I’m still alive. Nobody has been killed. The same cannot be said for killing an unborn human.

  • Vince

    Sperm is not a human being. It has only half the DNA of a human being. Sperm is truly a “potential human being.” A fertilized egg IS a human being.

  • Vince

    You were once a sacred embryo. YOU were treated with respect as an embryo. So should current embryos. BTW, there are many people with diseases who oppose embryonic stem cell research because they’re NOT SELFISH.

  • Vince

    So? That doesn’t make it okay to kill unborn human beings. BTW, to my knowledge, ESCR has accomplished NOTHING. Adult stem cell research has accomplished a lot, without killing any human beings.

  • Vince

    pennyroyal, she’s simply stating her opinion. Why are you so offended? You seem to think your views are better than hers, so why can’t she think hers are better than yours? She has a right to free speech. I don’t care if you’re a minister. Many ministers are a bunch of phonies, such as you. There are a bunch of phony abortion-supporting “Christians” in America. Why should your views hold any more sway than hers?

  • Vince

    Grow up, and learn to be civil. She’s not a bad person simply because she disagrees with you.

  • Vince

    It’s wrong that all those embryos are destroyed. Every embryo deserves to be implanted in a woman’s uterus, which is why embryos shouldn’t be created that way in a petri dish.
    When you were an embryo, that was YOU, the same YOU that you are today.

  • Vince

    That is why embryos shouldn’t be created in a petri dish to begin with.

  • Vince

    Can you give an example of how she’s made a fool of herself?

  • Vince

    These bishops have the right to do what they want with their own money and to politely ask their parishioners to not donate to stem cell research that kills embryos. The bishops have no problem with donating money to adult stem cell research, though.

  • apotropoxy

    Well, sphincter, you might want to consider the theological issue before you release any more methane.
    Your tribe has traditionally believed that a heaven and a hell exist and that sin gets your ticket punched to perpetual torture. Sending souls (another ridiculous notion your type harbors) to heaven should be a sacrament. Where is your love, mercy and wisdom?
    According to YOUR logic, your deity created the rules and the consequence for disobedience.
    You’re over your head, son. Get a job and buy a clue.

  • Vince

    Nope, I’m an atheist. A PRO-LIFE ATHEIST. We do exist; abortion is not just a religious issue as liberals have made it out to be, DUMBASS.

  • phatkhat

    I didn’t say she was a bad person. She just has warped ideas. And she, like others of her type, would FORCE their views on the rest of us by law if they could. They are, in fact, working hard to do just that. They are loud, strident, and never give up. They do not understand the idea of living their ideals while letting different others live theirs. The majority of Americans does not want abortion outlawed. They support stem cell research. They support gay marriage. And all the other stuff the religious rightwingers are fighting to make illegal. One day, we will wake up in New Gilead if we don’t wake up much sooner and do something about it.

    And Disqus should have left the downvote button alone.

  • Vince

    What makes here ideas “warped”? Again, you’re not being civil. Can’t people be respectful when disagreeing with each other? Okay, most Americans disagree with her, but that doesn’t make her nuts.
    Also, people on the left want to force their views too. Hard-line feminists want to overturn the Hyde amendment and force taxpayers to pay for abortions. The religious right aren’t the only people trying to force their views on others.

  • phatkhat

    “Many ministers are a bunch of phonies, such as you.”

    Gee, Vince. Maybe it’s YOU that needs to “grow up”.

    People create the gods they or their society needs/wants. Whatever deity there may be, it isn’t what any religionists think it is. No power capable of creating a universe is going to be involved in petty tribal squabbles of the inhabitants.

  • Vince

    I’m just giving back some of what they’re giving to her.

  • phatkhat

    Well, where is the amendment that outlaws invading other countries, killing civilians – including children and pregnant women – with drones, upsetting governments, and committing torture, all in the name of cheap oil? I object to MY tax dollars supporting that.

    I object to MY tax dollars supporting Israel’s assault on Palestinian women and children. Where’s the amendment for that?

    Our tax money is always spent on things that some people object to.

    And after calling Pennyroyal a “phony”, you have NO room to talk about anyone else’s civility, my friend.

  • phatkhat

    So why not let her take care of herself? She probably doesn’t need a dude to protect her, she evidently is a grown woman.

  • Vince

    So because you have to pay for stuff you don’t agree with, abortion opponents should have to pay for abortion? Isn’t that kind of a childish attitude?
    I agree that the war with Iraq was wrong, but it was done by our military. How else does the military get money than through the taxpayers? Abortion is a private medical procedure, usually elective just as breast implants and botox are elective. I don’t see why it should be funded publicly.

  • Vince

    I’m sure she can take care of herself, but I don’t like to see people getting ganged up on.

  • phatkhat

    Do you have any idea how many zygotes fail to implant? At least 50% of them. So what about them? God’s rejects? You people care about fetuses to the exclusion of born people.

    And had my mother had an abortion, then I wouldn’t have missed anything, would I? I wouldn’t have known anything – I wouldn’t have yet been sentient. “Sacred” embryo. Oh, please.

  • phatkhat

    A human being has a mind. “I think, therefore, I am.” An embryo has no brain, and is not sentient, therefore dubiously alive, and certainly not “human”, regardless of the genetic code.

  • Vince

    First of all, I’ve said here that I’m an atheist. I’m one of those rare atheist pro-lifers, but we do exist. If I did believe in God, though, I would say that God has the right to do what he wants as our creator. If he, through nature, wants to prevent a zygote from implanting, that’s his right. I mean, in the end, we ALL die. However, if one human plays a role in another human’s death, that’s murder.
    Okay, you wouldn’t have missed anything, but you still would have been robbed of a life. It’s funny how not one pro-choice person has ever been aborted. What’s wrong with believing human life is sacred from the very beginning?

  • phatkhat

    Ooooh, you are so CIVIL to others. LOL. Who needs to grow up, again?

    And yeah, there are a lot of libertarian, misogynistic atheists out there. Until you guys can grow a uterus and carry the little buggers and deliver them, then STFU and let women deal with their OWN lives.

  • Vince

    It has human DNA, so how is it not human? Okay, it has no brain YET, but it will eventually have one. If you kill an embryo, you’re killing something that’s meant to grow into a fully developed human. I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on this. I don’t see the harm in a woman carrying the fetus to term, though. Nobody is forcing her to raise the child; she can put it up for adoption.
    How can something be dubiously alive?

  • Vince

    Okay, I deleted the insult.
    My position on abortion will not change if men are ever able to carry babies to term.

  • phatkhat

    Once the taxes are paid, they are government money. The government spends them as they wish. Why should an abortion opponent’s stance have any more weight with the government than an anti-war person’s? But that is what you are saying. MEDICAID is a government program. The military is a government program. (And what about women in the services who are raped and get pregnant?) You want your way and to hell with everyone else.

    It’s NOT like cosmetic surgery at all. Women have abortions for any number of reasons. I know a woman who had one so she could have cancer treatments. If she died from the cancer, she would have left her OTHER children motherless. Oh, but wait. Silly me. Women are merely here for the convenience of men and for childbearing. Her hubby would be able to just get a new one.

    And what about the Afghan pregnant women killed by drones? Wow, kill the fetus and the mother in one blow.

  • phatkhat

    Let. Me. Tell. You. Something. Mr. Superior.

    I DO see the harm in a woman being FORCED to carry a fetus to term. I have been there and done that. I did not want to do so. I knew I didn’t have the means to raise a child, and I certainly wasn’t ready for one. (Never was, never had another.) So, yes, I gave it up for adoption. But I couldn’t have an abortion, because it was before Roe, and I was almost desperate enough to do the coat hanger thing.

    But your blithe attitude is one of the privilege of maleness – YOU do not have to ever worry about doing it. You have no idea what pregnancy does to a woman, nor do you care, as long as your precious fetuses are protected.

  • Vince

    Once the taxes are paid, it’s the government’s money, but that money comes from the people. A considerate government spends that money wisely. Just as our taxpayer dollars don’t fund breast implants, they shouldn’t fund elective abortions especially in light of the fact that abortion is extremely morally controversial. Medicaid is a government program, but it funds PRIVATE medical procedures. Like I said, Medicaid doesn’t fund Botox because that would be insulting to the taxpayers. The same can be said of abortion. The Iraq war was bad, and those behind it are likely war criminals. However, how else can a war be funded than by the taxpayers? Abortion can be funded privately.

  • phatkhat

    Did you delete your insult to Pennyroyal, too? Or just the insult to the male? And you won’t have to worry about men getting pregnant any time soon. If they could, though, it would fix over-population. No man would ever go through labor more than once. ROFLMAO.

  • Vince

    As far as Afghani pregnant women go, nobody rejoices that innocent people are killed in war, but it happens. Obama is definitely not intentionally killing these innocent people. I think that war is a moral war that was started for good reasons.
    Sometimes abortion is not elective, and, to my knowledge, there is Medicaid funding for those special circumstances. As far as your friend with cancer goes, why did she have to get the abortion before treating her cancer? According to the ultra-pro-life Catholic Church, it’s actually morally okay if a fetus dies as an indirect result of cancer treatment. However, most of the time, abortion is unquestionably an elective, unnecessary procedure.

  • Vince

    One more thing: if I had to identify myself as either a liberal or a conservative, I would say “liberal.” I’m not fond of the fact that conservatives like to cut spending on good programs that benefit people. I’m actually for gay marriage and legalizing pot. I’m for single-payer. That doesn’t mean I agree with every liberal idea though.

  • Vince

    Why do you say that regarding men? I don’t remember my insult to Pennyroyal, but it’s hard to be civil towards people who aren’t civil themselves.

  • phatkhat

    That depends where you get your eggs. If they are organic, free-range chickens, then, yeah, the eggs are probably fertilized. If they’re the cruel caged chicken ones, then they aren’t.

  • phatkhat

    No, it is NOT. At least not usually. But women should NOT feel shame for doing what is right for them. And would you have a woman with a pregnancy that endangers her life or health go on with that pregnancy?

  • phatkhat

    You are either naturally dense or are purposely being obtuse. DRONES are extremely morally controversial, too. I object to my tax dollars funding them. But I have nothing to say about it. And the anti-abortion folks should have even LESS to say, because 99% of it is based on religion.

  • Vince

    So are you saying you regret your decision to give life?

  • phatkhat

    She had uterine cancer. She had the abortion and then a hysterectomy, I believe. But in any case, medical issues should be a decision of doctor and patient – not some wingnut congressman.

  • Vince

    If they’re fertilized eggs, then, yes, they’re unborn chickens. That still doesn’t mean you got what you paid for if you ordered chicken. Like I said, veal can legitimately be considered beef since a baby cow is a cow. That doesn’t mean you should be served veal when you ordered beef.

  • phatkhat

    I know pro-choice conservatives. But I wouldn’t count you as a liberal. Libertarian, maybe, except for the spending cuts.

  • Vince

    No. I support abortion if her life is threatened. As far as health goes, that kind of depends on what you specifically mean by that.

  • phatkhat

    You said she was a “phony” Christian. LOL, like you would know. (I wouldn’t – and I’m an atheist, myself.)

    I don’t think you see women as equals, and thus, my comment about the insult. Too many men, including too many atheist men, have a very patronizing, patriarchal view of women and their proper place – which isn’t publicly airing their viewpoints.

    Or did you mean men in labor? Heh. Men couldn’t deal with labor. Some doctor invented a device that caused muscle contractions that mimic labor. The men who tried it couldn’t make it to the end. ;o)

  • Vince

    Drones are controversial; I don’t deny it. I can see some justification, though, at least if it’s in a just war.
    I just don’t see how, on one hand, you can say that pro-lifers shouldn’t force their views on women but, on the other hand, say that pro-lifers should have to pay for women’s abortions. Doesn’t that sound hypocritical to you? You want the government out of your uterus except when it comes time to pay.

  • phatkhat

    It was not my decision. It was the State’s decision. I was forced to give birth against my will. And yep, I regret it. I wouldn’t force anyone to have an abortion against their will, and they shouldn’t be able to force me to give birth against mine.

  • phatkhat

    If I got veal for the price of beef, I’d consider myself very lucky.

  • Vince

    Okay, but most abortions aren’t like that.

  • phatkhat

    Maybe you should google “pregnancy complications” and read the laundry list.

  • phatkhat

    Look at Medicaid like Medicare. It’s a form of single-payer insurance. It should pay for whatever a doctor deems necessary for the well-being of his patients and their families. I want the government out of my uterus, and out of the doctor’s exam room.

  • phatkhat

    No, most abortions are not for uterine cancer. But as to fetus dying as a result of radiation or chemo… What if it doesn’t die, but is horribly damaged, and is born with multiple debilitating birth defects? I think abortion is the kindest thing when a baby will be like that pathetic child Rick Santorum has – a short and extremely painful life.

    It’s not all black and white. It’s shades of grey, and very complex and nuanced. There is no one right thing for everyone. That’s why the late Dr. Tiller said, “Trust women.” Women know what is right for them. We actually do have the capacity to think and reason. Even if we don’t think as you do.

  • Vince

    I’m certainly NOT a libertarian. Are you saying there’s an abortion litmus test for liberals? There are pro-life Democrats in Congress.

  • Vince

    I don’t see how one can be a Christian and support legalized abortion. That’s just my opinion, but that’s what I think. That’s why I called her a phony.
    If women can get through labor, why wouldn’t men? You say I am a misogynist, but it seems that many on your side hate men. Why do you ladies even have sex with men if you hate them so much, lol?

  • Vince

    So if you met your biological child, you would tell him/her that you regret giving life?

  • Vince

    I’m sure there are many different types of complications, but everything I’ve read says that the overwhelming majority of abortions are elective.

  • Vince

    You know that Medicaid doesn’t cover most abortions, right? Legally, you can have your abortion. Why shouldn’t you be expected to pay for it yourself, though?

  • Vince

    Rick Santorum’s child is pathetic?

    I understand what you’re arguing, but I don’t think “mercy killing” is the right answer.

  • phatkhat

    I know very few anti-choice liberals. Anti-choice has a misogynistic streak somewhere. But there are plenty of conservative Dems. We call ‘em blue dogs or DINOs, LOL.

  • phatkhat

    Look, men are wimps when it comes to pain. Really. They are. It’s probably some sort of evolutionary adaptation. And, yes, Christians can be pro-choice. There is nothing in the bible that forbids abortion – and yes, women had them then, too. Actually, babies were not considered people until they drew their first breath in biblical times, and causing a woman to lose her fetus was only a property crime, not murder.

    I don’t hate men – I just don’t have any patience with anti-feminists. And yes, my husband is also a feminist.

  • phatkhat

    Not likely I’ll ever meet him. And now he’s… um… 45 years old. I wouldn’t bring up the topic, but if he did, I think I’d have the guts to be truthful. Tactfully.

  • phatkhat

    EVERY pregnancy carries the chance of serious problems. Some more than others. No woman should be forced to birth an infant she does not want to bear. It’s her life and health. Her decision.

  • phatkhat

    Yes, I know Medicaid doesn’t cover most abortions, thanks to the Hyde Amendment among other things. Not every woman can afford it. And the right wing is trying to run Planned Parenthood out of business. So what is a poor woman to do? She is the one least likely to be able to afford contraception, too, and may find herself pregnant. You do know most abortions are for married or partnered women, right?

  • Vince

    The Bible says something to the effect of an eye for an eye if a man injures a woman, causing her to miscarry (dead baby), and what about the sixth commandment? I don’t know how a person can call himself a Christian yet support death for the innocent unborn.
    Since you have to be “pro-choice” to be considered a feminist today, I’m a proud anti-feminist, not that I’m a misogynist though. I believe women should be treated equally to men.
    It’s kind of wimpy for a man to be a “feminist,” isn’t it?
    Men are wimps when it comes to pain? Can you prove that scientifically?

  • Vince

    Well I’m sure he’s grateful that you did choose life instead of using a coat hanger.

  • Vince

    The chance, but doesn’t mean anything serious will happen. If pregnancy is no threat, I don’t see how it’s justified.

  • Vince

    They’re just trying to cut funding of Planned Parenthood because it provides abortions. Feel free to fund it privately if that ever happens.
    What is a poor woman to do? Well, why is that my problem? She can have the baby and give it up.

  • phatkhat

    The one with Trisomy 18. Yes, she is pathetic. It’s a tragic condition, and painful. And lethal. To me, an abortion is a kindness in a situation such as this. And yes, I support assisted suicide as well, for terminally ill people. We are kinder to our ailing pets than we are to human family.

  • phatkhat

    Exodus 21:22 specifies a monetary fine for causing a miscarriage.

    Feminist men are not wimpy – they are sexy as hell! :o)

    Actually, there are studies regarding men and women and pain. But I’m not going looking right now. I’m going to bed. I’m sure you know how to use google.

  • phatkhat

    Maybe he is, maybe not. Depends on how his life unfolded, I suppose.

  • phatkhat

    And it doesn’t mean it won’t, either. Pre-eclampsia, gestational diabetes, blood clots… just to name three life-threatening ones. And they can happen to ANY pregnant woman.

  • Vince

    That sounds kind of mean-spirited to call her “pathetic.” She has dignity.
    Assisted suicide is different because it’s consented.

  • Vince

    If you read on in Exodus, it says an eye for an eye if there is harm.
    Feminist men just seem to me like the type who have been successfully nagged. That doesn’t seem masculine.

  • phatkhat

    Wow. That is pretty cold. You have lots of feelings for an unsentient mass of cells, but none for poor women. Or any women, for that matter. I DO contribute to PP, but they do far more than just abortions, you know. Many of them don’t do abortions at all – only make referrals.

    Guess what? It isn’t my problem if your junk fails to work, either. But you can get assistance through Medicare/Medicaid. It isn’t my problem if you need a heart transplant, insulin, or any other medical procedure. That’s the nature of insurance – either commercial or single payer. We all pay in, and whomever needs medical care gets it.

  • Vince

    Well I would support abortion IF the mother’s life was threatened but not if it was not.

  • phatkhat

    Dignity? She has humanity, but I’m not sure about dignity. I stick by pathetic. And yes, she’s here, and can’t make a decision for herself, so she’s stuck with the pain until her body fails. I truly do feel for her. Her parents not so much.

  • Vince

    It sounds cold, but why should I have to pay for her abortion if she can’t afford it otherwise?
    I support the idea of health insurance but not for an elective, controversial procedure like abortion. Even if we go to single-payer, abortions will likely not be covered.

  • phatkhat

    If there was harm TO THE WOMAN. After all, the woman was valuable property to the male. And how many verses glorify infanticide? I don’t think the bible particularly dotes on infants and small children, and not at all on fetuses.

    You obviously don’t know many feminist men. They rock! If you think feminism in men isn’t masculine, then you have bought the role stereotype. Shame on ya.

  • Vince

    What did her parents do wrong?

  • phatkhat

    She shouldn’t have to take the chance if she doesn’t want to. Period.

  • phatkhat

    Then insurance shouldn’t cover elective drugs like Viagra, or penis pumps, either. You won’t die if you can’t get it up.

  • Vince

    I went to the gotquestions website (a fundamentalist Christian website), and the person who runs it said that the verse is referring to harm to the baby in verse 23, as opposed to if the baby comes out but is okay in verse 22. The Bible also says that God knew us in our mothers’ wombs, right?
    I remember Jerry Springer playing the role of the “masculine feminist” on an episode of Married with Children. One character on the show asked what’s a “masculine feminist,” and another character said, “That means he sings show tunes.” Lol.

  • phatkhat

    They didn’t let her “go to Jesus” before she was born into a life of pain. Pain that she is not capable of understanding. Selfish on their part, if you ask me. But, they can afford it. Many people cannot. Ricky has really good insurance. Much better than my paltry Medicare.

    Good night. It’s past my bedtime. :o)

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Tell me, do you want to force a soulless evil selfish woman like me to be a Mother by law? Would you criminalize abortion again?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I go there to debate occasionally. It is not ‘an issue’ at all for you or anyone else but ME. Keep your cold wet nose out of my Bird.
    That is the law. Stick your nose in my Bird without my consent, and I will cheerfully rip it off your face. M’kay?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    You know as little about chicken farms as you do about logic. Snore.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am a Catholic. I say it is to the point.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    How many abortions have you had?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    So you want to criminalize abortion? I remember when abortion was illegal. My Catholic Mother had an illegal abortion. We could have lost her.
    Where do you get off trying to tell my Mom and Dad how many children they ‘should’ have? That is Nazi stuff.

  • Jim Reed

    It’s not your de.cision

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Jehovah is a proabort.
    Hosea 13:16
    The word of the Lord … The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    There is abortion in the Bible that is a trial by ordeal for a woman suspected of adultery. Proof being the aborted fetus. Mosaic law given to Moses by Jehovah.

    The Bible cannot be used to teach morality. Biblical morality practiced today will get you arrested.

    Do not teach the Bible if you do not know or understand it. To do such is blasphemy IMO.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I ‘chose life’ when I was inconveniently pregnant in 1961. My Catholic Mother offered me an abortion. She ‘knew someone.’ I refused to abort.
    That was the stupidest decision I ever made. The child did okay. At 70 I am still suffering for that decision. In retrospect, I should have aborted.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Read the board. Pennyroyal is not your secretary.

  • cgosling

    Vince – As you well know, the most common definition of death in medical terminology, is no brain activity. A fertilized egg is not dead, but at the same time is not human. A fertilized animal egg only has the potential of growing a brain and other vital organs, being an animal, being born, and surviving. Of course, the fertilized egg we are referring to, is alive, but it lacks the necessary organs (brain, heart, etc.) to stay alive beyond initial embryonic cell divisions. It is destined by nature (or God if you like) to die. I think you know all this. The main question you pose is: “How can something dead grow into something living?” This once ultimate question will soon be proven possible by scientists when they create the first living thing in a ‘test tube’. Most scientists believe the universe was originally lifeless, but after billions of years the needed temperatures and combinations of basic elements finally occurred and made it possible for something ‘not alive’ to grow into something ‘alive’.

    Finally, as an atheist you should know that morals are man-made and are relative to the society we live in. They are not provided by any one of the thousands of Gods that human societies have imagined. Death by human volition under certain circumstances may well be considered moral, humane and desirable.

  • cgosling

    Vince – Oh my! You assume I don’t know trees are not human. I should end this comment right now. The acorn/oak tree logic remains pure and simple. We are not making moral judgements about acorns and embryos; we are using simple logic to explain a point.

  • pennyroyal

    there’s DNA in both the egg and the sperm, so your argument is bogus. The anti-abortion zealots forget or ignore or trivialize what a forced (by priest, lawmakers, supreme court, etc.) birth does to a women. It takes away her autonomy and makes her a ward of the state. That, sir, is draconian and monstrous.

    If legally I could hitch you up to another person’s blood supply (as a blood donor) for 9 months to keep them alive, THAT would be draconian and monstrous and no one. No male would stand for that loss of autonomy. But you anti-women types think you can force women to give up their lives to continue a pregnancy she doesn’t want to carry.

  • pennyroyal

    why is your story and that of millions of women trivialized and minimized??? even today?? That must have been a scary and traumatic time for you. And all that Catholics cared about at the time was that you carry the pregnancy. Nothing about your right to go to college and make a life of your own Nothing about your agency and ability to make decisions on your own behalf

    I am 70, also and as a student nurse say the results of back alley abortions. Criminalization of abortion will not stop women from having abortions. Vince is a zealot and wants to force women back into having dangerous and unsterile abortions. Even as it is a legal, constitutional right for women.

    Check out Catholics for Choice. They have their heads on straight. And refuse the shame that Vince and his ilk would still heap on the heads of women from that time–and today.

  • pennyroyal

    Vince, I am the adopted mother of a 45 year old child. His life has been traumatized by not knowing who he is. We met his birth mother and her life has been harmed and she suffered mightily for not being able to raise him. If I had it to do over again I WOULD NOT have adopted, knowing what I know now. Yet you zealots keep screaming adoption as an alternative to abortion and your heads are up your butts about the consequences to all parties.

    As for coat hanger abortions, surely you know the consequences and desperation of girls who self-abortion. Sepsis throughout the whole body, massive hemorrhage, and a painful death. You shut up about coat hangers–you are a murderer.

  • pennyroyal

    if you really think every embryo should be implanted in a woman’s uterus, then we’ll have to round up and lock up a lot of women in prison against their will to do so. Think, man! it might be a new experience. Your notions are totalitarian. And you sound like a madman.

  • pennyroyal

    the hundreds of patients and family members I served faithfully as a chaplain in a hospice would tell you, Vince, what a liar and smear-artist you are. No one is going to malign the integrity of my life work and the depth of my commitment to serve. How dare you malign me here. You know nothing about how devoted ministers are. (and many priests, for that matter, to serve quietly and patiently without making a big show of it).

  • pennyroyal

    Vince, the warped ideas and the desire to force women into forced birth is all yours. You have made an idol of the fetus and that is immoral and unethical when, as you do, you insist on being the moral arbiter for the world of women.

  • pennyroyal

    the Hyde amendment should never have been. Again, I am protecting women’s rights to their own bodily integrity. Shall I suggest you have a prostatectomy and schedule it. Then you’d scream bloody murder. Yet you blithely set out to control what happens to a woman for the rest of her life.

  • pennyroyal

    you are no liberal Vince. I doubt your sincerity and veracity here. I’m beginning to sense a troll who will say anything to paint himself as a liberal. What a joke.

  • pennyroyal

    and they are hateful and vicious. Because they are self-hating, twisting their personal views around to fit an ideology.

  • pennyroyal

    Rick Santorum’s wife had a late miscarriage and he wouldn’t allow a surgical removal/abortion. She almost died of a massive infection. Luckily for her she passed the dead fetus and survived. I would have divorced the turkey after that. He loves his wing nut ideology more than his wife’s live. Santorum is to the right of Attila the Hun. He’s no paragon.

  • pennyroyal

    your comments are illogical and absurd. Women need reproductive healthcare, including abortions. Our healthcare system (ACA) does just that through private healthcare plans that we pay into. You are either ignorant or deluded.

  • pennyroyal

    you are right phatkhat: dense or obtuse. Just stop answering him. he’s not worth it.

  • pennyroyal

    yep, you are a modern Libertarian. All for individual rights except for women who get pregnant. The old style Libertarians must be turning in their graves over this nonsense the Vince spouts.

  • pennyroyal

    why do you spout Catholic doctrine then say you are an atheist?

  • pennyroyal

    you have no moral right to judge. even the buy-bull says “judge not lest ye be judged”
    what a warped set of views you have.

  • pennyroyal

    what utter nonsense. Veal comes from a calf that has been born. You are totally illogical–again and have made a false parallel that is ludicrous on the face of it.

  • pennyroyal

    what a whopper. Veal is from a born calf. Your argument is fallacious. In fact all your arguments are just notions and all are fallacious. You are out of your depth so just face it. Your comments are laughable but no one is laughing.

  • pennyroyal

    no you are in my territory. Secular Pro-life is a front made up of libertarians who want to oppress women. Go look up MRAs. Men’s Rights Advocates. These people are utterly vile.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Well said.
    I am a member of Catholics for Choice. Trust me, I have no shame. I had to work hard to become whole and sane. I succeeded. Thank you, God.

  • Gregory Peterson

    Actually, a new human life is not formed at conception. It takes “New” viable human life to even get to that point, like recently made sperm cells and recently released eggs.

    Why would you privilege insensate life of sensate life? For that matter, why do organizations which privilege male clergy and discriminate against women in major leadership roles. such as the Southern Baptist Convention and the Roman Catholics so privilege a microscopic bit of insensate life, which nobody could have even known about until the invention of quality microscopes, over sensate lives? And why would they think they have any moral authority and credibility on such an issue…or most any issue, for that matter?

    It’s not like there hasn’t been 200 years or so since the human ovum was confirmed to think about the significance that has in relationships and equality between the sexes. Where is the theology of the mammalian egg?

  • Gregory Peterson

    “Once a person is conceived, he or she is alive.” A viable, zygote isn’t really a “person,” and nobody could have known that there was such a thing as a viable zygote until the modern era. Are you microscopic? Can you be frozen in liquid helium and safely thawed? Just split into two or three “persons?”

  • Gregory Peterson

    Can chickens be “unborn?” Try…”unhatched.” (There is a cheap shot insult there, but I’ll pass…)

  • pennyroyal

    those who would continue to dominate women’s lives have no clue how hard one has to work to throw off indoctrination, conditioning, social mandates, shaming (you’re selfish, they charge). What a triumph to become whole and sane!!!

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Thank you. Nice to meet a fellow traveler.

  • pennyroyal

    cheers! Don’t let the trolls get you down.

  • Vince

    So a woman should be able to have an abortion because the pregnancy MIGHT threaten her health/life? That doesn’t make sense. That’s like me saying I should be able to kill my next door neighbor now because he MIGHT try to rape my wife tomorrow.

  • Vince

    You will have sex with a man? I thought your type hated men.

  • Vince

    None.

  • Vince

    Your mother wasn’t much of a Catholic if she had an abortion.
    I’m not telling people how many children they should have. Nobody’s forcing them to have unprotected sex. Nazi stuff? Please. Abortion sounds more like Nazi stuff.

  • Vince

    I don’t believe in the Bible, but, according to Christians, God can kill whomever he wants since he’s god.

  • Vince

    I’ve stated before that I don’t believe in the Bible. My views aren’t based on it. I’m smart enough to know that you can’t legislate solely because of what the Bible says.

  • Vince

    Aren’t Catholics supposed to be pro-life?

  • Vince

    Your Catholic mother doesn’t seem like much of a Catholic. I guess everything went in one ear and out the other when she went to church on Sundays.
    Would you tell your child you should have aborted him/her? I don’t get how someone can regret choosing life.

  • Vince

    “Catholics for Choice” is a mockery of the Roman Catholic Church. Their views do not represent the opinions of the Roman Catholic Church.
    Uh, a woman can give up her child for adoption and then go to college and live her life; her life doesn’t have to be ruined by a pregnancy. You pro-abortion types always seem to forget that.
    You’re right; criminalization of abortion won’t stop abortions. Criminalization of rape won’t stop rape either, but that doesn’t mean we should legalize it; the same goes for abortion. Criminalization of abortion will definitely reduce the number of abortions. You talk about dangerous back alley abortions, but abortion is never safe for the fetus being killed.
    Yes, abortion is recognized as a constitutional right, and I respect the law. However, I believe that the law should be changed through peaceful means.

  • Vince

    “Catholics for Choice” is an oxymoron. Why do you stay in a church that obviously differs with your views?
    Earlier you said that you refused to abort, so why do you say, “I have no shame”? What would you have to be ashamed of, since you did the right thing?

  • Vince

    You wouldn’t have adopted? So you’d let your child be an orphan?
    Yes, coat hanger abortions are bad. Do I feel sorry for a woman who hurts herself while trying to have an abortion that way? Not really, since she wouldn’t be in that position had she not chosen to commit murder. It’s a choice; nobody is FORCED to have an abortion.
    What kind of minister are you, if you support abortion? Christians are supposed to be for LIFE.

  • Vince

    What’s worse: a woman being forced to give birth or an unborn human being killed in an abortion?

  • Vince

    The Hyde amendment doesn’t strip any woman of her right to choose. It just says that the taxpayers can’t be forced to pay for it, and rightly so.
    Again, what kind of Christian are you in supporting DEATH? Christians are supposed to be for LIFE. What does the sixth commandment say?

  • Vince

    I’m for gay marriage and single-payer. That sounds liberal to me.

  • Vince

    “He wouldn’t allow”? Uh, but women have the right to choose, right? His wife chose life. That was HER choice. You would have divorced the “turkey”? Uh, the Bible says you can’t divorce except if there’s adultery. See, you’re a phony Christian.

  • Vince

    How was it selfish on their part?

  • Vince

    No, the ACA does NOT cover abortions.
    A woman needs an abortion like she needs breast implants, and MEDICAID DOES COVER ABORTION when the mother’s life is in danger. No unnecessary abortion should be paid for by my tax dollars. YOU’RE the one forcing your beliefs on me now. Don’t you see the hypocrisy?

  • Vince

    No, I’m NOT a libertarian. I don’t even like libertarians, and I argue with them all the time on the internet. Libertarians are against public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, and pretty much everything. I am not. I’m just against abortion. I’m not against the government helping people.

  • Vince

    Viagra treats a disorder, though. Abortion doesn’t.

  • Vince

    Obviously we cannot force a woman to be implanted with an embryo. That’s why the only moral solution is to simply ban in vitro fertilization. Creating a bunch of embryos that are just going to be thrown in the trash, is wrong.

  • Vince

    I think it’s selfish for a couple that can’t procreate to get a doctor to create a bunch of embryos that are going to be destroyed just so the woman can get pregnant. It might not be my decision, but it’s WRONG.

  • Vince

    Because they’re right on this issue.

  • Vince

    We’ll have to agree to disagree about them not being human.
    Atheists can believe in morality.

  • Vince

    Why should it matter that it’s not sentient? It’s a human life that will eventually be sentient anyway.

  • Vince

    You totally misunderstood my point, which is that, yes, fertilized chicken eggs ARE chickens, but that doesn’t mean you should be expected to pay for eggs when you asked for chicken.

  • Vince

    This is what I mean when I say there is no civility here.

  • Vince

    Thanks for the correction.

  • Vince

    I thought you’re too old to have a baby now. Why are you still talking like you’re capable of getting pregnant?

  • Vince

    The egg has half the DNA of a human being. The sperm has half the DNA of a human being. Neither is an individual human being by itself.
    I think it’s more monstrous to kill the unborn than to “be a ward of the state.”
    If I don’t donate blood to a patient, I’m not actively doing anything to kill him/her. An abortion actively kills a fetus, so it’s not the same thing.
    Don’t the Ten Commandments say something about not killing, Miss Christian minister?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Nonsense, Vince. You do not think.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Truth is an absolute defense to a charge of slander … or incivility.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Why do you ask?

  • Vince

    You call it the “Buy-bull,” yet you’re a MINISTER? Bwahahahahahahaha! You’re screwed up.
    That biblical verse is about hypocrisy, not against judging. Read James 5:20.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    You do not get much, Vince.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I would never give a born child to a stranger and hope for the best. That is truly irresponsible. Someone like you might get the child. Abortion while it is still a clot is preferable.

    The RCC agrees that a fetus is not a legal person.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/23/1181447/-A-fetus-is-not-a-person-if-it-costs-us-money-says-Catholic-Church

    And it does not matter what the RCC thinks or preaches. It matters what I think. And I think abortion is a responsible choice when confronted with an unwanted pregnancy.

    “Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. Conscience confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even of the official church.”
    (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], “Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II”, ed. Vorgrimler, 1968, on Gaudium et spes, part 1, chapter 1.)

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am PRO life so naturally it follows that I am PRO choice.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I believe in the Bible. I have one on my desk. Do I believe the Bible is ‘inerrant?’ No.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    My Mother is a Catholic who is 93 and lives in NC. You do not get decide if my Mother is or is not anything at all. Only God gets to judge her.

    And Jehovah God is a proabort. The Bible and the Bible’s God utilize abortion as a tool of genocidal war and civil control. Hosea 13:16 and Numbers 5:11-31.

    Nazis were ANTI CHOICE – just like you. They forced Aryan women to give birth and Jewish women to abort.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Nonsense, Vince. You do not think.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Most trolls are so stupid you wonder how they live day to day. Some are so sadistic you wonder if they are typing from jail or the nuthouse.
    I like to beat them up if I can. Or frustrate them at the least.

  • phatkhat

    False equivalency. And yes, that should be her decision to make. Not yours, not mine, not the USCCB’s.

    I should note that I support abortion for any reason at all in the first trimester. Most abortions occur in the first 8 weeks, IIRC. Later term abortions should only be for health/life endangerment issues for the woman, or severe fetal abnormality.

    My position is the position of the majority of Americans, BTW. It is also the de facto norm for abortions in the US.

  • phatkhat

    I don’t think you are too dense to understand. I think you are trolling me. Go upthread and read my posts again.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    You do not know any Christians. Who you think you are kidding?

  • phatkhat

    That’s debatable. Maybe men should have to get their wives’ consent before obtaining Viagra. Kind of like women have to go through such a goatrope to get healthcare.

    It’s been real, but I have other things to do.

  • Vince

    Your language tells me that you’re a hateful, bitter person. How sad it must be to be you!

  • Vince

    Nobody would be forcing you to be a mother, just to give birth. You could give up the child for adoption.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I would never give a born child over to a stranger and hope for the best. That is profoundly irresponsible. A cruel dope like you might get the child. Abortion while still a clot is preferable.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I wish you what you wish me.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Adoption is a cure for not wanting to be a parent.
    Abortion is the cure for not wanting to be pregnant.
    I am not a broodmare for the infertile.

  • Jim Reed

    What do you mean by wrong? Since you are not a Christian, I guess you are not saying Jesus is the answer. Does wrong mean you think we need to make a law and arrest those who create embryos?

  • Vince

    You got pregnant in 1961, which means you’re too old to get pregnant today. Why are you concerned about having birth control?

  • cgosling

    Vince; As I said, morality is relative to the society and time period in which a person lives.
    Also, a live human embryo is not yet a human and may not become one.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I have three daughters. I speak for thousands of women.
    Go away, Vince. You are stupid and you have no manners.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    “How do women still go out with guys, when you consider that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women! Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women.
    You know what our number one threat is? Heart disease.
    Try to imagine you could only date a half-bear, half-lion. ‘Oh, I hope this one’s nice.’ ”

    - Louis CK

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    However, if one human plays a role in another human’s death, that’s murder.
    …………………
    Wrong. There are a number of occasions when causing the death of a human being is acceptable and not a crime: assisted suicide, defense of self or others, execution, war, police work. I would include abortion in the list but a ZEF is not a human being.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    You are making a fool of yourself. I must say, I enjoy watching you do so.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Vince does not understand what the word ‘elective’ means in medicine. And yet, he wants like all zealots to be in charge of medical care and sexual life of women he will never know.
    Further, Vince expects to be seen as sane and caring. That is the chief delusion of the forced birth cultist.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Catholics are right on this issue? Catholic women are right about this issue.
    The hierarchy is not right and that is why they are ignored.
    98% of Roman Catholic women use contraception. Catholic women have 23% of the abortions nationwide. They have a higher rate of abortion than Protestants and Jews.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Childbirth is 14 times more dangerous than having a nice safe legal abortion.
    And maternal mortality is increasing in America. An American woman is more likely to die in childbirth than a Chinese or Canadian woman.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    A woman needs no reason to abort beyond “I do not want to be pregnant.”

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    That is a higher level of reasoning than Vince is capable of. He is not only self righteous. He is also uneducated and unreasonable.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    You do not understand the medical definition of abortion. Just like you do not understand what ‘elective’ in medicine means.

    Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.
    Definition of ABORTION : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:
    a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation
    b : induced expulsion of a human fetus

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    “Don’t the Ten Commandments say something about not killing, Miss Christian minister?”
    ………..
    No. The commandments do not say that.
    Tell me, if you are so against ‘killing,’ what do you eat?

  • Vince

    So why do you have sex with men if you hate them so much?

  • Vince

    I can decide whatever I like; it’s a free country. I don’t believe in God, so God won’t be judging her. The Catholic Church is totally against abortion, so your mom isn’t much of a Catholic. Good Catholics follow their church’ teachings.
    Forcing to abort is Nazi-like. Forcing to give birth is respecting life.

  • Vince

    I used to be a Catholic myself.

  • Vince

    You just contradicted yourself. Either you believe in it, or you don’t.

  • Vince

    “Pro-life” and “pro-choice” mean the opposite. You can’t support life yet support the right to kill.

  • Vince

    How have you suffered for that decision? How can you regret giving life?

  • Vince

    So what you’re saying is, “If I can’t raise my child, no one can.” That’s kind of selfish. Choosing life is a selfless decision.

  • Vince

    Yes, sometimes killing is okay, but not the intentional killing of innocent human life.

  • Vince

    Real ministers support life. You’ve already called the Bible the “buy-bull,” so you’re no minister.

  • Vince

    An atheist can’t believe that something is wrong? Who made that rule?
    My first interest is the abortion issue. Minds have to be changed on that before minds can be changed on embryonic stem cell research. Yes, I would support a law. I’m not saying they should get the death penalty for creating embryos, but there should be a penalty.

  • Vince

    They probably have more abortions because there are more of them than there are Protestants and Jews. I mean, all of Latin America is Catholic. That’s a lot of people.

  • Vince

    Then use protection if you don’t want to be a broodmare.

  • Vince

    In charge of your sexual life? When did I say that? I’ve never said that the government should regulate sex.

  • Vince

    There’s no such thing as a safe abortion. All abortions are unsafe for the fetus.
    Maternal mortality would be solved by better healthcare, not abortions.

  • Vince

    Yes, and that’s a shame.

  • Vince

    I don’t care what the majority of Americans think. I wouldn’t care if I was the only person on earth who thought this way. What’s popular isn’t always what’s right.
    Also, you contradicted yourself. You said abortion is always acceptable because it MIGHT threaten the mother’s life. Then you go on to say that abortion should only be legal in the third trimester if there’s an ACTUAL threat to the mother. If a woman is in her third trimester, her pregnancy MIGHT eventually become dangerous even if there is currently no threat to her life, right?

  • Vince

    There are many atheists who oppose the death penalty because they think it’s “wrong” even though most Americans support it. Why should abortion be any different?
    You say an embryo is not human, but that’s a matter of opinion.

  • Vince

    Okay, what is the commandment then? You’re a Catholic, so it would be the fifth commandment for you. (It’s weird how Catholics number the commandments differently than Jews and Protestants.)

  • Vince

    So what’s your point?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    The point on your head. Ewww.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Thou shalt not murder.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Poor little fetus. I will set it free. It can get a job, a little apartment. Maybe it will write once in awhile.

  • Vince

    Good for you. Yes, I know the commandment is actually “murder” instead of “kill.” Many uneducated liberals say “kill” when they try to argue that the Bible is against the death penalty (although the Bible is actually very much for it). I was testing you to see if you knew that, and you passed.
    I brought up another part of the Bible where it says an “eye for an eye” if the baby dies due to a woman being injured. Also, the Bible says that God knew us in our mothers’ wombs and that Elizabeth’s unborn child (John the Baptist) “leapt for joy” at the announcing of Jesus’ conception. The Bible seems to say that a fetus is more than nothing, and it doesn’t seem to say that abortion is an acceptable form of killing. Therefore, most fundamentalist Christians seem to think abortion is murder, biblically speaking.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    So do you want to force a substandard woman like me to take on the sacred task of Motherhood? That is not sane.

  • Vince

    Again, like I said, nobody would be forcing you to raise the child after birth.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Childbirth is part of a woman’s sexual life. Did your Mom not have ‘the talk’ with you?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Get your cold wet nose out of mi concha or I will chop if right the fook off.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am speaking of Catholic women in the USA only. All sluts. >tic<

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Abortion is a sensible response to an unwanted pregnancy. You do not like it. Cry me a river.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am saying what I said before. If you are not going to read what I type to you, no point in talking to you.

    Once again:
    I would never give a born child to a stranger and hope for the best. That is truly irresponsible. Someone like you might get the child. Abortion while it is still a clot is preferable. I am not a broodmare for the infertile.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Eeezy peezey.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    It is up to you to figure out what I mean. That is called reading for content. I think it would be a good idea if you took a course in reading comprehension. In the battle of wits, you are unarmed.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I got news for you, Bunky. I am not surprised.
    Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.
    You think like a Catholic and you beat up on women just like a Catholic.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Only God gets to decide if my Mother is a good Catholic or not.

    98% of Catholic women use contraception. Catholic women have a higher rate of abortion than Protestants and Jews.

    The Nazis were just like you. They forced Aryan women to breed and they forced Jewish women to abort. You really are a POS, Vincent.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am not at all interested in doing sex with you. You skeeve me.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I would never give a born child away and hope for the best. Someone like YOU might get the child. Abortion while it is little more than a clot is preferable. I am not a broodmare for the infertile.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Then those fundamentalist do not actually read their Bible. Jehovah uses abortion as a tool of genocidal war and and civil control. Hosea 13:16 and the Sotah in Numbers 5:11-31.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Thank you, dear merciful God, for forty years and counting of safe and legal medical contraception and abortion. Praise your Holy Name.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    My body and its contents belongs to me and to my family only.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Well then, no problem.

  • Jim Reed

    That is your opinion. An embryo is not a person, so it is not an actual moral issue. It is just a religious issue, and religions have ulterior motives, namely they need to try establish they are more moral than non-believers.

    You did answer my question about wrong. You think they should be arrested. It is not a capital offense, but they should get some jail time.

  • pennyroyal

    I wish I could like this 10 times, it’s so necessary to keep saying.

  • pennyroyal

    you play both sides of the fence, say you are an atheist then are front man for extremist Catholic positions. I think you’re either perverse, a troll, or a sock puppet. Who’s paying you Vince to spread this nonsense?

  • pennyroyal

    anti-abortion atheists are so far on the fringe you might as well call yourself a nihilist. No one listens to the few of you in the atheist community. So far out no one cares what you think.

  • pennyroyal

    you ought to make friends with reality, it’s not as scary as you fear….

  • pennyroyal

    yep, it hurt too much. They couldn’t endure the pain.

  • pennyroyal

    My husband and I are both members of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights as are many clergy, Christian, Jewish, etc. My denomination works to support women seeking abortions as well as birth control (BC is getting harder to obtain–check out TX, for example). I find you totally ignorant. If you don’t know RCRR, you really are lost in your own ideology.
    Aka, clueless.

  • pennyroyal

    Vince: and so is my husband, we are both pro-choice. And pro-privacy for women. Keep the government out of my private decisions and my life. No one should have the right to dominate a woman such that she is forced to give birth. Egad, don’t you know anything?? Your thinking (if one can call it that) is so black-and-white.

  • pennyroyal

    Jaysuss never uses the word abortion–or gay–for that matter in the New Testament. Why don’t you go do a search for “abortion” in your buy-bull. Oh, as an atheist, you don’t have one??

  • pennyroyal

    it so, then god is evil….
    why would anyone worship an evil god

  • pennyroyal

    and of course you believed him….
    and you watch Jerry Springer…

    you are ludicrous

  • pennyroyal

    Catholics for Choice is the future of the RCC. Otherwise it dies out. It’s top-heavy and toppling. The clergy sexual abuse scandals worldwide have cost the RCC the respect of all young people growing up now. You, Vince, are a dinosaur about abortion. In another couple decades it will be freely available.

  • pennyroyal

    or mommy’s basement where they live amid smell socks and empty potato chip bags….

  • pennyroyal

    anti-abortion atheists are not rare enough….even one is too many

  • pennyroyal

    got Rev. in front of my name, led churches, well respected, did ministry well. Other clergy, both male and female, support women’s reproductive rights, including abortion. Get real.

  • pennyroyal

    there is no such thing as unborn, just like there is no such thing as vampires/the undead.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Ewwww. Yes.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    These Bishops are kiddyfuckers and aiders and abettors of kiddyfuckers. They need to do penance and STFU and stop embarassing themselves and me.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Damn right. Nobody gets a born child from me. I will abort if i cannot care for it or I do not want it. Cry me river.

  • pennyroyal

    they are criminals for moving priests they knew molested children to new parishes where the abuse continued. Only now are they being convicted in US courts.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Yes. And i am proud to say that one of the first convictions was in the Philadelphia diocese thanks to our DAs Abraham and Williams.

  • pennyroyal

    in Boston we had Cardinal Bernard Law who knew and oversaw the moving of priests and the hiding of massive crimes against innocent children. He escaped prosecution and now under the protection of the Vatican, enjoying retirement. The next town to me had James Porter at St. Mary’s Church, serial pedophile. Another priest walked in on him and said nothing. The nuns at the school didn’t have the language to report what he was doing. I know family members of people their lives marked if not ruined.
    Then we have Vince who I have already called “clueless”. It’s immoral of course and to my thinking, abortion, while regrettable is neither a sin nor immoral. Just an unfortunate event. Put in the context of the large numbers of miscarried ‘clots’ that occur naturally, an induced abortion is permissible.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Bernie is famous. A real prince of the church.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I think he is a stupid. And a Catholic.

  • pennyroyal

    the Catholic church in highly Catholic Boston accused the Globe of being anti-Catholic. Then came the Globe series on the abuse scandal and it blew the doors off any lame defenses they had. The more Bernie stalled and refused to resign, the more I thought “good, Catholics will see how entrenched power clings to prestige and all the perks of office. We in the US shouldn’t even have diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

  • Tootsie1

    I’m heartbroken by my churces stance on this challenge. Perhaps a simple suggestion to send donations to acceptable research would have been more appropriate. My emotional response prompted me to write this article….http://malden.wickedlocal.com/article/20140825/News/140828075