Islam is as American as…

In Monday’s New York Times, I wrote a fairly innocuous sentence that was upsetting to some: “Islam is as American as the rodeo.”

The comments I received would not surprise anyone who writes about religion (among the printable: “Why don’t you go see ‘American Sniper’ and model yourself after a man who understood the reality of radical and not-so-radical Islam…”), but they did provide a window into the violent notions underlying the rising tide of anti-Islamic rhetoric.

Many Americans have no idea about the daily lives of people whose beliefs they fear so much. In light of yesterday’s attack on Deah Shaddy Barakat, Yusor Mohammad, and Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, three Muslim students in North Carolina, I offered a few thoughts on Twitter about just how American Islam is.

69 Comments

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    There were many good peaceful Germans too.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    Interesting that there is no mention of the (alleged) killer’s atheism or his like of the SPLC and Rachel Maddow.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Did he have a mustache too? Stalin and Hitler had mustaches.

    If there was something in atheism, SPLC, or Rachel Maddow that could be interpreted as a divine imperative to commit murder, you might have a point to make here. Correlation does not equal causation.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    He must be a good liberal.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    And yet, whenever there are barbaric acts of Islamic terrorism by Muslims, those who like the SPLC and Rachel Maddow have a fondness for falsely accusing the so-called “Christian Taliban” of being the same as the Islamic terrorists. They have no problem equating correlation with causation, even though none exists.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    If you could provide a quote where the SPLC (or even RM) has made such statement, I would love to here them.

    This murderer committed this crime either over some combination of a parking spot and the religion of the victims…not sure a press release from the SPLC has anything to do with it.

    How do you take a tragedy like this and turn it around into the persecution of conservatives? No decency.

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    As sad as this is, trying to make this into a religiously-motivated crime seems a bit of a stretch. Google “killed over a parking space” and read a few of the sad stories…most of which do not reach national attention.

    If you have regular altercations with a neighbor regarding a parking space, bake a pan of brownies today and have a sit-down to work it out. Being dead or spending the better part of your life in prison over a 9’x18′ piece of real estate for your car/truck is a tremendous waste.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Okay, but were there good Nazis? No one is making a claim about Germans in the scenario you’re concocting.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    If his anti-theism had manifested itself in explicit racism, then it should be followed up on. At a minimum, so the atheist community has a better understanding of what happened here.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Love the tweets – couldn’t be more true.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    I think there will be more incidents like this, especially after a big kill of Americans, by poisoning a reservoir or blowing up something. Pics of cuties in hijabs and guys playing basketball is not going to cut it. Deranged people will begin shooting what they think are muslims, to be joined by the less deranged…US can resemble Syria in no time.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Why sure! I bet some of those Nazis were cute as a button and played basketball too.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    *eyeroll*

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    That’s why I said “seems like a stretch.” I agree with investigating alternate motives, but attacking/killing over a parking space seems to be more common than I first thought, and is considered a valid motive for prosecution in court.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Monsters come in all sizes, shapes and colors. One does not have to be a young dirty ill mannered fellow living in the woods in order to work for the destruction of the West and the physical/mental obliteration of the kuffar. One may be clean, handsome, polite and exude goodwill.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    I said people who like the SPLC, not necessarily from the SPLC itself. However, there was another person who liked the SPLC and used their map to attempt to murder people at the FRC. Or did you forget that? Naturally, nobody who is an SPLC supporter would make that correlation. Except, of course, for the shooter.

    “No decency.”

    Yeah, let’s talk about that. There’s the aforementioned shooting I noted above. There’s the murders in Tucson a few years ago that were falsely blamed on Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, the GOP, the NRA, and every legal gun owner; that blame was assigned within minutes of the shooting. ABC News said the Aurora, CO shooting was committed by a Tea Party person, then had to retract because it was false; but the same group of people were falsely blamed within minutes. Same with Newtown. And all the while claiming gun grabbers are the actual victims.

    If you want decency, then it’s time those who want it acted decently in the first place.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    But are you casting Muslims categorically as monsters? Because that’s what it sounds like.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Ah, some nebulous “they”. “Those people” always seem to be the problem.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    Considering we have one attempted murderer who used the SPLC’s “hate map” to target individuals at the FRC, and now the atheist who allegedly gunned down these three kids, the “they” isn’t so nebulous, is it?

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    This is a common logical fallacy known as a “hasty generalization.”

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    Hey, wasn’t there some sweet young thing crowing recently that Hamas and the Sharia had taken over UC Davis?

    Are you casting Nazis categorically as monsters? How about anybody else? White men? Republicans? Political piffle speech aside…

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    So, you are casting Muslims categorically as monsters. Nazis were categorically monsters, even if they were banally nice. I said nothing about white men or republicans.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    Yes. I’ve seen it from the left for a very long time. For them, it’s an art.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Okay, but what about your “hasty generalization”? Care to retract it?

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    What hasty generalization? The (alleged) murderer is an atheist who on his Facebook page liked the SPLC, Rachel Maddow, apparently the Huffington Post, referred to Tea Party people as “teabaggers”, etc. What’s there to retract?

    And for the record, if this guy had been an actual conservative Christian, don’t you think the vast majority of the media, along with the lefty blogs and whatnot, would have splashed that fact all over the place? All I did was mention the fact he was an atheist and who he liked on Facebook and that information didn’t seem to make it to this post.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    What I am referring to is the tendency to label one group or the other in society as monsters.

    It is strange to me that there aren’t more effective attempts to change bad laws and procedures. Instead, we’ve got the blame game.

    Yes, I regard Islam in its present state as monstrous. A theocratic monster. Let it stand with the monsters. Let it stand with the KKK, the Nazis, on the rubbish heap of history. Soon.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    If those things have nothing to do with why he killed them, then it doesn’t matter.

    And do I think the vast majority of the media would take up his being a conservative Christian as a major focal point? No, I don’t.

    Would lefty blogs point to it as some sort of motivation? Maybe some would, but if there was no reason to believe that motivated the killing, they’d be bad writers to do so.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    You have a pretty shallow understanding of Islam. But whatevs.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    “If those things have nothing to do with why he killed them, then it doesn’t matter.”

    We don’t know that. I’m just saying they are clues. Maybe those clues won’t lead anywhere, but they are clues.

    “And do I think the vast majority of the media would take up his being a conservative Christian as a major focal point? No, I don’t.”

    Then you haven’t been paying attention.

    “Would lefty blogs point to it as some sort of motivation? Maybe some would, but if there was no reason to believe that motivated the killing, they’d be bad writers to do so.”

    And yet, being “bad writers” didn’t stop them from falsely accusing Sarah Palin for Tucson; in fact, most remain “bad writers”, including a huge number of them for the media. So what you say is wrong.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    You have an idea of a “liberal media” that is hostile to Christians. And that liberals are hostile to Christians. That is laughable. Maybe show me some stats about how “they” (libby blogs, categorically) falsely accused Sarah Palin. And how “most” are bad writers. And that “huge number” for the media. Nah, the strokes you paint with are a little too broad to be taken seriously.

    But, I get it, you’re just asking questions.

    Here’s a question, “Did you rape and murder an 8 year old boy in 1993?” I’m not saying you did, but, y’know, I’m just asking is all.

  • robert.m.jeffers@lonestar.edu' Rmj says:

    Probably so, but had the alleged attacker been Muslim and the victims non-Muslim (or even if they were, actually), there wouldn’t be a lot of consideration of the importance of the parking space in the crime.

    Sadly.

  • robert.m.jeffers@lonestar.edu' Rmj says:

    Um, yeah…because our President is a dictator who would happily kill his own people, and the military would fall in line with that without question or concern.

    Uh-huh.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    “You have an idea of a ‘liberal media’ that is hostile to Christians. And that liberals are hostile to Christians. That is laughable.”

    What’s laughable is that you think it’s laughable when in fact it’s true. I know; why let the facts get in the way of the narrative, right?

    “Maybe show me some stats about how ‘they’ (libby blogs, categorically) falsely accused Sarah Palin.”

    Heck, I’ll give you a link to the first one: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/08/934315/-Sarah-Palin-s-Culpability-in-Attempted-Assassination-of-Giffords . If you’ll note, that timestamp shows that the post came out a little more than 3 hours after the shooting. It’s never been retracted.

    Over at Salon ( http://www.salon.com/2011/01/17/poll_palin_map_arizona/ ), they link to a poll from CNN that asked if Palin’s “crosshairs” map had something to with the shooting. 35% thought it did. Turns out those 35% were entirely wrong, weren’t they?

    Then there is the Pima County Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik. Now, this Democrat has been in law enforcement for 50 years. But he sure decided to sound more like a Democrat than a cop ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/sheriff-clarence-dupnik-a_n_806303.html ) on the day of the shooting.

    This Politico piece ( http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47252.html ) names names: Keith Olbermann, Markos Moulitsas, John Aravosis, more from Dupnik, and Paul Krugman.

    I’ve asked Harry Reid the accused pederast if he raped (but not murder) an 8-year old boy, but he never answers. I’m just asking questions.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    Americans are just as capable of running amok as other people, regardless of who is in power. I was not referring to the government of Syria. We could start looking like any number of places.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Okay, so you have a few examples. But, until you can demonstrate your claim about “most” and an all-encompassing “they,” then you’d better adjust your language; otherwise, you are the liar.

    Moreover, there have been a number of notable studies which have shown that the media does NOT have a liberal bias–that it is either conservative, mixed, or geared toward negativity.

    But, I’ve seen that you’ve referred to the SPLC as a “hate group,” so, yeah. You sound like a really reasonable guy.

    But, go ahead, keep sniffing out those “clues,” Sherlock.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    I give you big names, including Krugman, and you still think it’s nothing? Keep killing your credibility.

    And those studies, who sponsored them, leftists? Unless you think being between Mao and Stalin is somehow conservative. Yes, the media has a liberal bias. It’s come across that the vast majority are Democrats. And by Democrats, I mean leftist Democrats.

    Yes, the SPLC is a hate group. To them, preaching orthodox Christian beliefs is hate speech. Why, do you think so too?

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Well, if you could respond to the actual points a person made, then you might be able to have a coherent conversation. Best of luck to you, though, in your future conversations.

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    Maybe you should read my responses instead of ignoring them. Of course, that means your narrative would end up where it belongs, in the toilet, and I’m sure that’s not a bubble you want to see blown apart.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    We already have interior conflict and atrocity going on, even though the media doesn’t follow it much. That could ratchet up dramatically. Say after a huge kill of Americans, which I do believe is probably coming up.

    Muslims are not on the approved target list. One may excoriate any number of other groups, but not them.

    After the pilot was burned, posters were putting up old lynching photos. I wonder, did Jessica Chambers of Mississippi look a bit like Jesse Washington?

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Like I said, good luck.

  • oaim50@yahoo.com' Don says:

    Islam is as American as Christianity, if you must know the truth.

  • kimrene1@comcast.net' Theloginyoureye says:

    It’s pointless Steve. People choose to remain in denial. Over and over he asks for examples and proof, points out how it would be “bad writing”, says you’re opinion is laughable, all the time assuming you won’t take the time to back up your statements. So he can easily write them off as unfounded opinion or generalizations. When you prove your point clearly, well, then you must become “a liar” so that his perception, (written without any of the proof he demands from you) can remain unchallenged and without reproach in his own mind. You’re correct, most do not let facts or even logic get in the way of any of their overused and worn out talking points. The facts would just distort their illusion. I think it’s a self-defense mechanism, mixed with a dose of antipathy. When the reality is just too harsh, when the cold facts interfere with a sense of safety and well-being, it’s better to just remain in denial and keep one’s head in the sand. Because the truth is not only a big inconvenience, it’s often just plain horrific. I must admit, I sometimes envy their ability to ignore everything going on around them in order to embrace their own sense of the “truth”, or the “truth” as our government would like for us to see it. Write off those with old-fashioned ethics and values as conspiracy theorists, religious nuts, or even anti-American bigots. Pat each other on the back for their advancement into the modern age of enlightenment and critical thinking..you get the drift. To me, it’s blatantly obvious that the media has a liberal agenda. Of course, we don’t have any reference points for Andre’s “notable” studies claiming the media is not biased, but we are all aware that for any opinion under the sun, we can find a “study” with facts to represent it. I like to view foreign news broadcasts to get a more balanced and broader story, more realistic. It seems foreigners have a much better grasp on America than many Americans. One thing we can all agree on, the political divide and contempt is worse than I’ve seen in my lifetime. A recent Pew research study “Today, 92% of Republicans are to the right of the median (middle) Democrat, compared with 64% twenty years ago. And 94% of Democrats are to the left of the median Republican, up from 70% in 1994. United we stand, divided we fall. We really need a leader who is able to reach across the vast divides and find a way to unite us as Americans again. Obama has been a very useful tool for “fundamental change”, as promised in his campaign, and even more effective at creating contempt and division in the country while destroying our reputation abroad. Step outside the box and tune into a foreign news station if you want to get a realistic take on how other nations view O and America. Spoiler alert: They don’t like us very much, and deservedly so. I don’t like us very much either lately. Anyway, sorry about the novel Steve. Just wanted to say that while I appreciate seeing another like minded poster with a firm grasp on reality, that is an attribute completely lost on those who cannot eloquently concede in a debate they lost almost immediately. (So instead just call you a liar and say YOU are the one lacking the ability to have a coherent conversation). lol. I’m afraid a solid argument is not possible with those who don’t use reason.

  • phatkhat@centurylink.net' phatkhat says:

    Sigh. The “discussion” here just corroborates the point Peter makes. SMH

  • phatkhat@centurylink.net' phatkhat says:

    He’s a troll. Maybe a paid one, because if you look at his profile, it seems he has an awful lot of time on his hands to go to multiple blogs and post stuff like this. One quote I found interesting…

    “Teaching children to engage in “social justice” is tantamount to child abuse.”

    ‘Nuff said.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    What a windbag.

    But, for your information, i get my news from Al Jazeera. What now.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    Oo, no bias there. They are interesting. PBS is too. I used to be quite liberal, vote for Dems, etc. But the constant dirge of bleating and blaming, cursing and howling, got to me. Waaaaaaa amurrica and most of the people in it stiiiiiink! Let’s all get behind that idea. Not.

    Islam wants to destroy the kuffar. Koran, hadiths = destroy the other, if not with murder then with oppression. The hadiths I believe recommend night raids and killing children to fill the unbelievers with despair. The Koran has instructions on dividing loot and how to bang slave girls. So fix Islam.

    FDR said municipal unions could destroy a city.
    Eisenhower said it would be political suicide to throw out the SS and other benefits.

    Dan Pat Moynihan said Hillary was constantly deceptive.
    Somebody please fix the Dems.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Yeah, I don’t believe you used to be “quite liberal,” otherwise you wouldn’t be pushing that tired old line about liberals hating America & Americans. I mean, if that’s what turned you off, why is becoming conservative the only other option?

    Also, are you suggesting Al Jazeera has a muslim bias because it’s based out of the middle east? and are you assuming that that is tipping me toward favoring Islam somehow? I mean, it’s not like I am muslim, and it’s not like I’m going to deny that there are dangerous and extreme elements within Islam (which Al Jazeera reports on, btw). So, what, Al Jazeera is coloring me toward a complicated and nuanced view of Islam? And your argument is against a complicated and nuanced view of Islam? You’re a dumb@ss.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    i would say that all news channels have a bias of some kind. I think Al Jaz is interesting.

    Political writing i would say is mostly imagination. Yes, the negativity of liberalism drove me away. Also the Dems appear to be financially incompetent.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    As people get older they often decide that the left has money problems and stupid social ideas.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    First, I’m not a democrat, you @ss.
    Second, that’s not even true. It’s only true for you, apparently.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.net' eliza says:

    Tell it to Detroit. Tell it to the people fleeing to red states. The left does not know how to handle money.

    The social ideas have been bad for years. Negative ideas that do not lead to success in business or marriage or government.

    Islam is a religion of worldly conquest. Its tenet is that violence rules the world. Unlike communism, it does not even look good on paper. It ignores its, problems, rather as the left does.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    What nonsense.

  • aravistarkheena2@gmail.com' Aravis Tarkheena says:

    How could you look at those pictures and say such an ugly thing?

  • maintour@yahoo.com' MainTour says:

    True Islam follows Sharia Law. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Islamic State are based on Islamic Sharia Law. I see very little that is American in those societies.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    I am not too thrilled with the right either.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    I don’t care.

  • elizavieta@embarqmail.com' eliza says:

    Her sister came over to visit them and parked in his holy sacred parking space, causing him to park farther away from his apt. than he liked. Maybe the lot should have had a designated guest parking area.

    He killed for a parking space. let him die for a parking space.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Just to put a bow on this a bit. It appears that he actually supported the ground zero community center and that his FB page shows that he was critical of all religions without promoting violence against any of them. Also, there doesn’t appear that he had a problem with any other Muslims (if he knew any). I think the support for the ground zero center makes the hate crime angle a tough sell. Likely a gun nut with a temper. More info may come during the trial.

  • s.d.stewart@gmail.com' Sam says:

    🙂

  • s.d.stewart@gmail.com' Sam says:

    Similar to how and why Gabrielle Giffords was targeted?

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    By whom? Loughner? It was proven that Loughner wasn’t at all political, and that he didn’t even know of the existence of the thing you’re referring to.

  • s.d.stewart@gmail.com' Sam says:

    That opinion seems in line with the rest of yours.

    Either way, the Palin ad with Giffords in the cross hairs is the type of thing you are speaking of though, correct?

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    Yes, but that ad is the same type of ad used by all kinds of candidates and supporters of all political persuasions. There’s no way Palin can be given any blame whatsoever for that.

  • s.d.stewart@gmail.com' Sam says:

    Didn’t you say:

    Considering we have one attempted murderer who used the SPLC’s “hate map” to target individuals at the FRC…

    I must be confused because you just said:

    …that ad is the same type of ad used by all kinds of candidates and supporters of all political persuasions. There’s no way Palin can be given any blame whatsoever for that.

    Why does Palin get a pass but the SPLC doesn’t?

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    “Why does Palin get a pass but the SPLC doesn’t?”

    For one obvious reason, which you stated. The SSM-supporting thug admitted to using the SPLC’s map in order to target the people at the FRC. The people claiming Palin shouldn’t get a pass are the ones who said Loughner used her map to target Giffords, even though that isn’t true at all since Loughner didn’t even know it existed.

  • s.d.stewart@gmail.com' Sam says:

    I see.

    Thank you. Have a wonderful week. 🙂

  • steve_tsouloufis@hotmail.com' SteveAR says:

    You’re very welcome. You too.

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