Josh Duggar and the Purity Lie

duggarpurity

Josh Duggar, the oldest son of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, stars of “reality” TV and the real life conservative movement, has resigned his position as executive director of FRC Action, the political action arm of the Family Research Council, after In Touch magazine reported that he sexually abused young girls, including, apparently, his sisters, as a teenager.

In a statement to People magazine, Duggar, now 27, said:

Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. . . . I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life.

Ruining his life.

According to the police report, Jim Bob and Michelle, paragons of parenting, hid Josh’s crimes from the police and the public. In Touch reports, based on the police report it obtained via a Freedom of Information Act request, that:

Josh Duggar was investigated for multiple sex offenses — including forcible fondling — against five minors. Some of the alleged offenses investigated were felonies. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar were interview [sic] by the Springdale Police department on Dec. 12, 2006. The report says that James told police he was alerted in March, 2002 by a female minor that Josh — who turned 14-years-old that month — had been touching her breasts and genitals while she slept. This allegedly happened on multiple occasions. In 2006, Jim Bob told police that in July, 2002 Josh admitted to fondling a minor’s breasts while she slept. “James said that they disciplined (redacted, Josh) after this incident.” The family did not alert authorities.

The police report reveals that Jim Bob Duggar “met with the elders of his church and told them what was going on” rather than contacting law enforcement. Josh was then sent to “Christian counseling” for three months, which, according to his mother’s admission, was not any sort of licensed counseling facility:

Asked about the training center that Jim Bob said Josh was sent to, Michelle told police, according to the report, “it was not really a training center. Det. [Darrell] Hignite asked if the guy [redacted, Josh] talked to was a certified counselor. She said no. She said it was a guy they know in Little Rock that is remodeling a building. Det. Hignite asked if the guy was more of a mentor. She said “kind of.”

In their own statement to People, Jim Bob and Michelle say that “when Josh was a young teenager, he made some very bad mistakes, and we were shocked. We had tried to teach him right from wrong,” that “each one of our family members drew closer to God,” and that they “pray that as people watch our lives they see that we are not a perfect family.”

But the Duggars and their supporters have very deliberately marketed them as a perfect family—or if not perfect, at least pure, and in particular, sexually pure.

The first episode of their “reality” television show aired in 2008, two years after the police interviewed family members about the sexual assaults that had taken place in 2002 and 2003; the statute of limitations had already run and the police could not pursue charges.

In 2010, the Family Research Council, Josh’s future employer, gave Jim Bob and Michelle the “Pro-Family Entertainment” award, describing the family as “outspoken ambassadors for Christian values in a secular world.”

On their television program in 2009, Josh Duggar was portrayed as devoting himself to a “courtship” with his future wife Anna, rather than dating, which was derided as part of the “divorce culture:”

Tonight, Anna described her husband to People as “someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended.”

This week, a recap of their television show on their blog discussed how Jim Bob and Michelle “encourage their kids to take a chaperone along on all their dates so they have someone to keep them accountable and ensure that they stick to their courtship standards.” In their family, they police sex outside of marriage. In politics they police sex between consenting adults, sex between people of the same sex; they are “pure” and “godly” because they police and condemn other people’s sexual lives. But now the public knows that this family which enforces “purity” has covered up the sexual predations—against children, even their own children— of their star son.

The Duggars haven’t shied away from “protecting” children in other contexts. As Right Wing Watch reports, last year Josh Duggar “led a successful campaign to defeat a LGBT nondiscrimination measure in Fayetteville, Arkansas, which he said jeopardized the safety of children,” and that his mother “also ran a robocall pushing for the repeal of the city’s nondiscrimination ordinance, which she warned would empower ‘child predators’ to threaten ‘the safety and innocence of a child.’”

The Duggars are no ordinary spokespeople for the religious right; they are super-spokespeople. For years, they have been held up as exemplars of biblical living, of devotion to Christ, and of, especially, homespun honest living and sexual purity. It’s long been obvious to many that this is a product of marketing and packaging, not reality. But now no one can pretend anymore.

  • nmgirl

    I just cant believe all the people defending this POS and his parents. It’s a crime, not a mistake.

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    The Duggars wont let their kids go to the beach or kiss before marriage but I saw Mr. Duggar on T.V. when he said he and his wife kissed a lot while she was mowing the lawn in a bikini…before they were married….such hippocrates. I have watched them 2-3 times on T.V and that is enough for me. I hope their son received adequate therapy for fondling/assaulting young girls.

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    Tonight, Anna described her husband to People as “someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended.” so states this

    web page. I wonder why this information wasn’t offered to the audience before the”world” read about it. There are many things wrong and not so pure with this family just as we all have skeletons in our closets but their behavior is so fake because they normally do not admit it.

  • Kevin Bailey

    What he did was terrible. But you DO realize that he himself was only 13 at the time, right? They shouldn’t have covered it up, and should have gotten him REAL counseling, but you don’t lock a 13 year old up and throw away the key for that kind of thing.

    With all that said, I agree that holding up this family as some paragon of Christian virtue is not a good thing. It’s always sort of bothered me, as it seems to imply that families who make different choices in raising their children are somehow wrong or sinful.

  • Rick

    Actually, the police report indicates he was 14, and that he snuck into the girls’ room at night and assaulted them while they slept. That, to me, sounds like he knew pretty darn well that he knew what he was doing was wrong. And it went on for at least a year. And the fact that he goes around saying that the LGBT community is a bunch of child molesters that we should hide our children from makes him a GROSS hypocrite. And, because of those shoddy parents, those girls had to live under the same roof for YEARS with their abuser. That is simply horrifying. I don’t think we should throw away the key, but, yes, some sort of punishment for him is appropriate. He shouldn’t be able to just say “God forgives” and face no consequences.

  • Lucy

    I think the biggest problem with fundamentalist Christianity (note that I said fundamentalist, I am NOT against all interpretations of Christianity) is that one can paint a box so small that even one’s own self can’t fit into it. Others are expected to fit into the box that fundamentalists paint, and the sins of the fundamentalist are at best “forgiven” and at worst, hidden and ongoing. Trouble, is that people will judge you as harshly as you judge others. No one cares that Josh feels forgiven by God, but that he imposes a harsh moral code on others when he himself is a sinner. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God- we are to love one another. We are all equal. We are all sinners. In short, I just don’t see the bible telling us to morally police everyone else, only OURSELVES (immediate family included).

  • golffuul

    Baby meet bath water. Not defending anything he did, just that the “author” of this article would want you to believe that anyone who would be portrayed on a television show as being an honest and morally upright person, is no longer capable of bearing the torch of said honesty and moral uprightness.

    I think the “author” of this article needs to look at herself in the mirror and wonder why she is asking people who are: either being misrepresented by the people (in this case TLC) who intend to make money off of them, or themselves being paid to lie to you for a living, for moral guidance.

    Cause here’s the takeaway. Reality shows are fake, scripted, or heavily edited to intentionally appeal to a certain market share for the purpose of making money off of millions of people who really have so little to do in their life but to aspire to be like someone on tv or, heaven forfend, someone in the political realm of society. Cause the two are synonymous.

    It’s quite astonishingly ridiculous that people would even care so much about people on a tv show, let alone be incredulous that none of them are living saints.

    That you have traveled so far down the road of gullibility and beyond the pale of intelligent thought, that it boggles the mind that you are arguing against a reality show on a cable tv station. What’s next….Tony Soprano is going to be vilified for portraying Italians and mobsters in a bad light?

    If I don’t see this “author” coming out against the Bachelorette for her utterly inappropriate display of what it means to be a woman, then she simply has no leg to stand on.

    Arguing against people from tv shows…..brilliant.

    Me thinks the “author” needs to cut her cable subscription before she finds out that not all tv is real, especially “reality” shows.

  • WP

    Vitriolic much? Perhaps those of us in this world who have never done anything wrong should stone the man?

  • PrincessImogen

    The first TV special I remember the Duggars being on was 14 Children and Pregnant Again, which aired in 2004. Their series began in 2008. The first special was not long after the abuse. The parents should have had higher priorities at the time to help their family heal instead of parading them in front of cameras as a model family.

  • Rick

    Dude, your boy Josh work(ed) for the “christian” lobbying group trying to drum up hate and fear of the LBGT community. People aren’t outraged just because he was on reality TV. They’re angry because he’s a raging hypocrite. Oh, and a criminal, don’t forget, he’s also a criminal while he’s prancing around spewing rants about conservative family values.

  • Rick

    PREACH! Like caring for their 4 daughters who were living in the house with their child molester son.

  • golffuul

    He’s not my boy. I’m just amused that people are all worked up over someone who turns out to be something different from how they are represented on a tv show or in the political realm.

    It’s as if they are being paid money to portray themselves in a different way than who they are.

    Isn’t that what tv is? Isn’t that what politics is?

  • pattyc

    Disgusting pedophile

  • pattyc

    He deserves jail time like anyone else

  • pattyc

    At 14 you can engage I’m criminal acts. Its not an excuse to commit crimes. He’s nothing but a filthy pedophile

  • Lucy

    He was a child when this occurred, hence he’s not a “pedophile”. He molested children when he was an adolescent, but a pedophile is an adult who is attracted to children. He has not been proven to be a pedophile.

  • wagnerfilm

    Oh okay, so he’s just a garden-variety molester.

  • wagnerfilm

    Pretty sure your opinion of what constitutes an “utterly inappropriate display of what it means to be a woman” (1952 called, it wants its gender roles back) is not even remotely in the same category as ***Josh fondling his own sisters’ genitals***.

  • golffuul

    I’m not even going anywhere near your delusion. In fact, I was arguing FOR the “author’s” opinion of what she thinks it means to be a woman.

    So. Nice try.

    Not defending Josh.

    Just laughing at how everyone put him on the pedestal to begin with, simply because they needed “entertainment” in their life and couldn’t think of anything better to do with it.

    But I’ll leave you to the delusion of your political and entertainment world. Figuring out which is which is your choice.

    Just leave the rest of the world out of it so we can actually live real lives.

  • Martin Kendell

    Every time I see the parents’ names “Jim Bob and Michelle”, I think they’re in a polygamist relationship.

  • Aitsuki

    Considering that this man has a daughter of his own?? I say goes to jail NOW. Because frankly? Child molesters don’t just stop….. and I fear that his own daughter will soon be a victim.

  • Jim Reed

    The obvious problem with these people is they want to overpopulate the world as a part of setting the stage for the decay of end times and then Jesus will come. They want to film their lifestyle and make it popular among Christians, and at least acceptable among everyone else.

  • Jim Reed

    Don’t you think it is fair for purity type Christians to have a little entertainment too?

  • http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/ Barry Shitpeas

    Child services need to be involved here. This sick man has a clear and demonstrable penchant for young children, and his own kids are clearly at risk.

  • Jim Reed

    Think about it. He snuck into the girls room while they were sleeping, and he was doing this for over a year. Don’t you get the feeling that the girls didn’t want him to stop, and also didn’t want to expose him?

  • conjurehealing

    Let’s try this. The Family Research Council, one of the most powerful Christian/right wing/conservative lobbying organizations in Washington, has an executive on their staff who was identified by authorities as a child molester. “Nothing to be worked up over.”

  • nmgirl

    I’ve done a lot of things wrong in my life, but I have never sexually assaulted someone.

  • nmgirl

    Please explain to me why you are defending this person? Are you not concerned about his identified victims or any potential unidentified victims including his own children?

  • Jim Reed

    The girls were probably playing their secret game, “Jesus touched me last night.” Who is Jesus’ favorite sister?

  • pattyc

    I’m sure you think religion cured his sick mind. He is a disgusting pedophile, who committed a crime repeated times and at 14-15 you are no longer such an innocent child. His parents are even worse for covering up for him. People like you who defend this pos are ignorant

  • Kelly

    Lucy is only trying to say that two teenagers screwing is technically not pedophilia. There ARE legal definitions of that, you know. What he did was at least sexual harassment or something, but you have to be an adult screwing kids or wanting to in order to be a pedophile.

  • lambodog

    The adult Duggars and their sex-abuser son all belong in jail, immediately off the air, and their remaining children belong in care as do any children of Josh Duggar. These people are criminals.

  • Jim Reed

    This will make the show more popular in Christian circles.

  • Jim Reed

    And by “identified victims” you mean a room full of his sisters, who could easily have stopped him or exposed him, but instead let the game continue for more than a year.

  • frrolfe

    “Amused”. Really?

    The reaction to this issue has nothing to do with TLC or reality TV. It has to do with the fact that the Duggars portray themselves as being morally superior to anyone who isn’t a knuckle-dragging fundie of their particular persuasion.

    What has happened is they have being caught out as raging hypocrites who have not expressed any concern or compassion towards Josh’s victims.

    Would you like me to draw pictures for you to explain the issue since you don’t seem to grasp exactly how awful his actions have been?

  • Methusaleh

    A few things being covered up:

    It went on when Josh Duggar was an adult. And apparently after his teenage years. The Duggars are hiding the timeline.

    The victims of his molestations received no help. Rather, the Duggar patriarch thought that it was best for his son to be “counseled” by a child pornographer. The girls in the family who were molested were not helped — since they are property to be used by men — the patriarch’s attitude was “big deal.”

    Not all of the victims were female.

    Mandatory reporters didn’t do what the law required them to do.

    Pedophiles don’t get cured. And they don’t change their ways. Especially when they are scared witless by someone who turns out to be a child pornographer himself. And Josh Duggar now has two children of his own to molest in the privacy of his own home. And with a wife who knew he was a pedophile when she married him.

    The Duggar TV shows should be canceled, but they make more money than the Honey Boo Boo show, so this will simply be another season for the Duggars and their quiverfull cult.

    None of the Duggar children has ever gone to college.

  • Methusaleh

    Lucy – you’ve bought the Koolaid the Duggars are selling. If you carefully read the reports and compare the dates, this continued into Josh Duggar’s adulthood, after his teen years. Josh Duggar is a pedophile. The Duggars are trying to hide the dates to minimize what Josh Duggar has done (and is probably still doing). Read it again.

  • Methusaleh

    Not all of Josh Duggar’s victims were female.

  • Methusaleh

    He first got caught at 14. But it continued. The Duggars are hiding the fact that he continued to molest his siblings and others after he became an adult.

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    Yes he does, however, the statute of limitations has passed so it is not possible. i believe he still may need some form of counseling as the person who did counsel him was someone who had worked in the Duggars’ home and did not have professional training as a therapist……this is not something that just simply “goes away”…not my words but the words of professionals.

  • Amy

    Those jezebels with their ankle length skirts and top buttoned blouses! You’re right…poor Josh/Jesus is taking all the blame for their sins. I mean come on…when a girl dresses like that…sister or not…there’s going to be some fiddly diddly. (I feel compelled to send my brother a thank you note for managing to keep his hands off my cooter our entire lives.)

  • NancyP

    Lucy, the ages of the victims are not stated in the above article. The incestual molestation is really awful even if it occurred between same age (twin) sibs. If the unrelated girls were of similar age, he would be a garden variety molester/ rapist. If considerably younger, a child molester. I agree that in terms of sexual orientation, it is hard to tell if a teenager would qualify as a pedophile, or whether he is opportunistic and would go after adult women if he were physically able to do so. Nowadays many or most 14 year old boys are large enough to overpower average-sized adult women. Nasty piece of work.

    I have to blame the parents’ methods of child-raising as well as the son. It is pretty clear that the parents didn’t want to risk endangering the family business (TV and related conservative Christian spin-offs), that the parents’ career was more important to them than their own daughters’ welfare. Given their attitude that men are vastly more important than women, and that “purity” is the major responsibility of the girls and women, it is not so surprising that they either not listen to their daughters (if the daughters actually felt they had the right to or had the courage to talk to their parents) or not notice that anything is wrong.

  • NancyP

    Yep, you do lock him up in juvie, preferably a court-mandated therapeutic locked community if available. You get him away from the sisters, and get him into a tightly supervised environment where he can’t do any night wandering.
    And folks, don’t blame the younger sisters, raised / brainwashed to be submissive to elder males of the household. I doubt that any of the sisters enjoyed any of it, other than the possible flattery from the obviously-more-important brother.

  • LoveCoates

    Here here. Are Rand Paul, Scott Walker, Jeb Bush and the Republican Party going to explain why they were palling around with this hateful, child molesting hypocrite? Oh that’s right: they all oppose gay rights because gays are a threat to children. The Duggars molesting kids and covering up for child molesters is okay: it was “traditional pedophilia”.

    Conservative Rethuglicans do not deserve anybody’s votes in 2016.

  • phatkhat

    Do you think the Duggar parents would have actually believed them??? Sheesh. They would NOT. The dynamics in those fundy families is not what anyone outside the movement would call “normal”.

  • phatkhat

    If he were a black kid, or probably even a non-celebrity white one, he would have been punished. Kids go to prison, even adult prison, in their teens for less. (Not saying that’s right, because they ARE kids, but this is a blatant case of Daddy wielding enough clout to get his criminal son off scot-free, while another kid would not.)

  • Rmj

    Maybe in another account, but not in this one. According to this account the molestations occurred in 2002 and 2003, when Duggar was 14 and 15.

    There are interviews with police in December 2006, by which time Duggar was 18, but nothing in this telling to indicate he was still fondling girls in their sleep that year, or any year after 2003.

    I’m open to the fact he didn’t stop at the tender age of 15, but I’m not open to inventing facts just to make Duggar look worse or to make him a “pedophile.”

  • conjurehealing

    who said they were female or not? I certainly didn’t

  • Jim Reed

    How many girls were in the Duggar’s girl’s room? Think about it. They could have ganged up and done something if they wanted to. He was only touching. They must have been playing along.

  • phatkhat

    That. Is. Disgusting.

    I never figured you for a rape apologist, but there it is. “They secretly wanted it.”

    And he “was only touching”. Well, that is still sexual assault.

  • Jim Reed

    Fundamentalist girls probably have fewer options for having fun. This was a room full of Duggar girls. You don’t get it?

  • phatkhat

    It’s you who doesn’t “get it”. Since fundies think that girls’ mere existence is able to cause males to lose control of themselves, any act like this is bound to be because of something the girl(s) did, and they would be slut-shamed. It is never about the male not practicing self-control. [eyeroll]

    And, yes, you are being a rape-apologist.

  • cranefly

    It’s not fun to be felt-up by one’s brother.

  • cranefly

    I feel bad for all the Duggar children, because they are not growing up (or did not grow up) in a safe, healthy home. I can’t help but see Josh Duggar as a victim too.

    I’m sorry this happened but I’m glad that it’s been made known. I hope it serves to wake up people who are disarmed by the smiles of those poor brainwashed kids. I hope it makes at least a few people think twice about the sex-worshiping, billion-dollar rape-culture industry known as “Christian Patriarchy” or whatever they’re calling it now.

  • Jim Reed

    If this was rape that would be different.

  • Refugee

    You seem to subscribe to the idea that this was “fun and games” for the girls involved. Are you a former or current molester? Have your partners (victims) expressed pleasure, perhaps?

    Or are you perhaps the partner of a molester, that you have the life experience to pass judgment on the girls, based on your own illicit pleasures?

    As a survivor, and having heard the stories of numerous other survivors, I call you at my most charitable, “woefully ignorant” (hopefully that is not “willfully ignorant) and at worst, a monster.

  • pattyc

    Yea it doesn’t just go away and I’m afraid there might be more victims.

  • Refugee

    And no, it’s not easy in that circumstance to stop or expose a molester, especially if it’s an older sibling. “I’ll tell mom and/or dad” becomes a two-edged sword in that situation. And in that culture, the girl is to blame. Just smiling at a brother can be construed as “come hither” behavior.

  • Refugee

    You sound like a sick and twisted individual. I hope you have no daughters or granddaughters of your own.

  • Refugee

    In that culture, such touching is taught to be disgusting. They probably feigned sleep (if they weren’t actually asleep) and desperately prayed that it wouldn’t happen to them that night, and while feeling overwhelming guilt, heaved a sigh of relief not to be the current target. Sad as it sounds.

    And of course they most likely never talked about it amongst themselves, because if you can just compartmentalize, you can almost deny to yourself that it never happened.

  • Refugee

    I must re-word my earlier statement. All benefit of the doubt has been removed. You *are* a monster, and I pity any woman in your life.

  • Refugee

    And if a 14yo assaulted, say, a 6 or 8yo on the playground, it would be treated like the crime that it is. Juvie, at a minimum.

  • Jim Reed

    Sisters would do something to protect their sisters if they were really frightened. And they easily could have done something It still makes no sense to see it that way.

  • Refugee

    How do you know not all the victims were female? Just curious.

  • Jim Reed

    I think you women are closing your eyes to what was happening here. You want to see it from a certain point of view, one that applies more to many other cases, but not to the room full of Duggar girls.

  • Jim Reed

    I have two sons.

  • joe dillon

    if he was a black kid and found out the authorities would have locked him up and we all know that. special rights for” Christians ” is how this america works..shame ..god will judge them..

  • Refugee

    This wasn’t just “playing doctor” or “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.” That might be construed as “normal curiosity” perhaps. This was not that, from the facts reported.

  • Jim Reed

    Everybody seems to be in denial here. A whole bunch of the girls could approach their mother together as a group, and say Josh has been coming into their room in the middle of the night and doing these things. They wouldn’t get into trouble, and they would be protecting their sisters. It would be so easy and logical in this Duggar case. But that didn’t happen. Why not? It seems to me nobody wants to look into that aspect of this.

  • joe dillon

    so this ” CHRISTIAN” family uses their HUGE influence to have equal protection for gays removed in arkansas using the argument that gays are sexual predators , all the time knowing their son is one and with their own daughters???? that see certainly Christ like to me! God will judge them …

  • Jim Reed

    It was reported he touched (fondled) them.

  • cranefly

    Jim, why do you have the psychopathy turned up to 11 today? Are you trying to be funny? Fundamentalist girls don’t want or deserve to be sexually abused anymore than anyone else. They ARE undoubtedly more likely to be guilted, controlled, and afraid to talk about it. If they DID tell their parents, how would you know? Their parents did everything to protect their son. They aren’t exactly known for respecting female body integrity.

  • Jim Reed

    If you and some of your sisters were fondled in the middle of the night (multiple times) by your brother, would you take the risk and expose him to protect your other younger sisters who were starting to grow up, if the worst possibility is you and your sisters would get blamed for leading him on? Or would you and your sisters just hide it and keep silent so that you wouldn’t risk getting in trouble? Before answering, remember your younger sisters will soon be at risk here.

  • Jim Reed

    I was just wondering if people are hiding things here and trying to look at only part of the story.

  • cranefly

    I don’t think I fully understand what you’re saying. It seems that the victims are very concerned that their exact identity remains unknown, and therefore we aren’t going to hear their side. But I wouldn’t expect anything else from girls raised in such a misogynistic culture – the Duggar daughters said plainly in their book that they believe what they’ve been taught: that women are responsible for their own abuse, and that being untouched sexually is their only source of value. That brainwashing is a whole separate crime against them.

  • Jim Reed

    If we have to get into all that, this could take a while.

    I’m glad this topic was started by Sarah Posner because I don’t think any of the others could handle all that.

  • Joanna Kelley

    Are you for real Jim? These were CHILDREN. Why are you so hot to defend this perverted molester? As it stands, the Duggars did know about it and what they decided to do was cover it up. You think that with all this preaching about the importance of “purity” these girls would form a little group to talk to Mom and Dad about being sexually molested? Are you kidding? As Refugee stated you are at the very least “woefully ignorant” about molesters and how they select and manipulate their victims.I don’t get why you are so hot to defend this hypocritical turd. With the Duggars wacko attitudes about sex, I wonder if these girls even knew that what this kid was doing was doing was sexual and a violation. I, too, find your defense of this guy creepy. At the very least you are a misogynist. I think the only person in denial here is you.

  • Jim Reed

    I’m saying fundamentalist girls across the nation need to learn they have to make sure they protect their sisters, because nobody else will do that job. If they can just learn this much, this whole discussion will be worth it.

  • Jim Reed

    Yes, I understand now. I have been discussing it below with Cranefly.

  • Joanna Kelley

    Perhaps the Duggars should remove the log from their own eye before they remove the speck from their brother’s. Here is the deal: We are tired of these right wing, holier-than-thou whack jobs persecuting any one who has different values than theirs, all the while covering-up the illegal activities of one of their children.These Duggars have unmitigated gall to preach purity all the while they are covering up their son’s molestation of their daughters. Despite all of this, they work to promote laws that oppress homosexuals and women. Who is casting stones now??? The Duggars have cast plenty of stones. Now people are throwing them back.

  • carolineredbrook

    Accused child predators like Duggar and accused pedophiles like Sylvain Kustyan, Jerry Sandusky, etc. must be apprehended before they have decades to prey upon our children. Sandusky is behind bars. But unfortunately, Kustyan, who has been formally charged with two counts each of 1st Degree Sodomy and 1st Degree Sexual Abuse of a ten-year-old little boy, fled the US to avoid imminent arrest. Kustyan, author of the textbook, “Join The Team”, formerly of Tuscaloosa, Alabama and Hermin/ Mazingarbe, France, where he was a teacher at the College Blaise Pascal Middle School, is now a fugitive from the law. As a teacher, Kustyan led numerous groups of schoolchildren on trips to the US, the UK and Ireland. Victims of Child Sexual Abuse often suffer lifelong physical problems as well as the psychological and emotional trauma from their horrifying experiences. Male victims have 3x’s the heart attack risk and 10x’s the suicide rate. Since the average pedophile has 300 different victims in their lifetime and since the recidivism rate among pedophiles is virtually 100% they must be stopped ASAP!

  • carolineredbrook

    I believe that you are mistaken. It depends more on the age difference, 3 to 5 years. His oldest victim was 11 and his youngest just 4. (Four were his sisters). That would qualify him as a pedophile.

  • carolineredbrook

    They found out when the oldest victim told her parents. He continued to molest for at least more than a year afterwards, apparently.

  • carolineredbrook

    His sister-victims were ages 4 to 11, NOT teenagers. We are talking about a pedophile.

  • carolineredbrook

    No game, the oldest did complain to the parents. He sneaked in on the little girls while they were asleep, so it was no game. He knew what he was doing was wrong. His parents allowed it to go one for at least more than a year and never did report it to the authorities. They discussed it with a personal friend who happened to be a cop, but they agreed not to report it and the friend simply gave the young pedophile a “bawling out”.
    Cover-up, cover-up and allowing your daughters to continue to be raped. (Other articles have mentione that he frubbed their vaginas. Whether by finger or otherwise any unwanted penetration of the vagina is legally rape.)

  • carolineredbrook

    You have just shown yourself to be a pedophile enabler.

  • carolineredbrook

    You really are a sicko. How can you assume to know what the his very younger sisters thought? Read my post right above if you care to know the truth.

  • carolineredbrook

    Again you have not bothered to inform yourself. It was the oldest victim who revealed it all to her parents. That is how it came out in the open.
    She was eleven at the time. I would dare to suggest that she was a lot braver than you would have been at that age. Your determination to defend this adolescent pedophile makes one wonder just what you did to your sisters and convinced yourself (as do most rapists, “She wanted it.”

  • Kevin Bailey

    From every story I’ve seen, it sounds like it started when he was like 12 and continued until he was about 14/15. I could be wrong about that, though, and if you have proof of the accusation about him molesting them after he was an adult, you should post it.

  • carolineredbrook

    But it DID happen. The oldest girl was only 11 and she DID report it to her parents who consequently allowed it to continue and attempted to sweep it under the rug. You are awfully hard on four little girls, aged 4 to 11! Did it not occur to you that this was their much older and bigger brother. They may have feared him or he may have threatened them which is typical behavior in pedophiles.

  • carolineredbrook

    He was 14 and it it continued until he was at least 15. Some pedophiles have recently been tried and convicted at age 15.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I agree with everything you wrote here. My only issue has been with treating this case as if Josh Duggar was 25 instead of 14 when it happened. But I agree that removing him from the family, getting him MANDATORY, court-supervised counseling, and getting the girls he molested into real counseling would have been the best thing that could’ve happened. What the Duggars actually DID was just about the worst–other than if they’d just ignored it and let it keep happening for 5 more years.

  • carolineredbrook

    No, I never stopped to think that. What I did stop and think was the girls gave up because at their tender ages and having already told their parents who did NOTHING about it, they simply did not know what else to do and were just hoping it would go away. Did you stop and think about that. You truly are sick, trying to shift the blame from a 15 year-old who knew what he was doing was wrong to four innocent landprobably frightened little girls who were only 4 to 11 years old! They were asleep, so they didn’t “entice” him, either. At best you are a pedophile enabler, at the worst you probably diddled your own sisters.

  • carolineredbrook

    What’s “fun” in your twisted mind, might not be “fun” in a normal human’s mind. As to only touching, a woman’s body is hers. No one should be excused for “only touching” a woman or girl’s body in an unwanted manner. Which the girls did express to their parents. At least the oldest victim did for them. He did “touch” their vaginas. If he actually penetrated them, even if by a fraction that is legally rape in some states.

  • carolineredbrook

    You must have really done some horrible things in your life to be insisting that these little girls ‘ wanted it”. They actually complained to their parents who did nothing!

  • carolineredbrook

    The oldest of whom was 11 and probably scared of her much older and bigger older brother. Don’t you get it?! If you had some sicko sisters, you should not assume that all nor even many or even any other young girls are like they were.

  • carolineredbrook

    It makes absolutely NO sense to see it your way. I’d like to see what you would have done as a frightened 4 year old if your 15 year old older brother was molesting you, or did he? And because you did nothing you are projecting your own guilt on to these poor innocent little girls.

  • carolineredbrook

    What do you not understand about the fact that the oldest victim, age 11 DID tell the parents who chose to sacrifice their daughters to protect their son.

  • carolineredbrook

    They need to make sure that they are taught to beware of sickos like you.

  • Jim Reed

    OK, you win. The article here and the one on huffingtonpost didn’t say the oldest was 11, and didn’t say she did tell the parents. Sorry, I didn’t understand.

  • carolineredbrook

    Please share your sources as, if true, this needs to be out there!

  • carolineredbrook

    The facts as stated are that he was a 15 year-old pedophile. He was more than 3 years older than his victims who were 4 to 11 years old.

  • carolineredbrook

    Not all of us have been running around molesting our very young siblings.

  • carolineredbrook

    It was reported that he fondled their breasts and their vaginas. If he slipped up in over a year of molesting and actually penetrated the vagina however, briefly, that constitutes rape.

  • Jim Reed

    After all this going out in the open, they are going to have to pay what the girls were saying, even if it is kind of too little and late. The only way they can defend Josh now is by saying after those things happened, Josh gave his heart to the Lord, and has been born again, so he is now a new man.

  • Jim Reed

    Yes, I understand.

  • carolineredbrook

    Raping your sisters is not acceptable “entertainment” anywhere.

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t think I should be held accountable for what I said 10 hours ago before we knew the latest facts of the case.

    I’ve seen the light. I’m a new man.

  • DK

    So are you saying that even though most survivors of sexual assault find it difficult to speak up about it – an incredibly brave action in a world that very rarely believes or supports sexual assault survivors, even more so when it is an older male family member – that these pre-teen girls should have somehow been held to higher standards of bravery simply because they were being raised in a fundamentalist family household? And because it may have been difficult for them to speak up at first – as it is for most survivors – clearly they were complicit in their own assaults? And you argue on yet another comment that they should have stood up for their other sisters: Perhaps they finally found the courage and strength after a year because they were more afraid their even younger sisters would be attacked, than they were afraid of the almost certain repercussions against them, have you considered that in why it took a year?

    Your line of argument here lacks compassion, empathy, and any real understanding of sexual assault from the perspective of a survivor. Before you judge others, perhaps it would help to be better informed.

  • Jim Reed

    I didn’t know the girls were only 4 to 11 years old. The report was he fondled their breasts, so I assumed they were at the age of puberty.

  • frrolfe

    You’re a pathetic sicko. Crawl back into your man-cave with your MRA and INCEL pals.

  • Sam4924

    I understand that the statue of limitations has expired regarding Jim Bon not reporting Josh sooner, BUT 4/5 of the girls were his daughters. How can he not be prosecuted for child abuse? I mean if I knew there was a teenager touching my children, and I didn’t protect them then wouldn’t I be responsible? He knew about this and let him babysit and left him alone with younger siblings throughout the entire show! I realize nothing legal can be done to Josh now, but seems like they could prosecute Jim Bob and Michelle, and the clergy who didn’t report it.

  • Teegester

    Having your older brother fondle you is fun? When you are 9 years old?? NO.

  • Disgusted

    So have you told your sons it’s okay to sneak into a young girls room while they sleep and touch them?

  • datch

    And now, we await the revelation that the father, JimBob, is also a chronic offender. I have long been certain of it–far more than I ever suspected Josh. The father is obsessed with sexual matters and has the sexual and emotional maturity of a young adolescent boy. JimBob has a consistent association and friendships with people who repeatedly are widely accused, convicted, or who remove themselves from public life for charges related to child pornography and sexual molestation. And that would most surely explain his delay and reticence to report Josh’s deeds (which are FELONIES, not “mistakes”). As for myself, I will continue to be patient. I am absolutely confident that it will surface about him in time. Maybe he molested Josh…that would be consistent with Josh’s later behavior. Who knows..we’ll see. Purity, my foot.

    Those poor girls to be in a family where the reputation of the men is held far above the mental and emotional health of girls who have been sexually molested as children.

    Mother of the year. Yeah. Right.

  • datch

    There are THOUSANDS of people who have served JAIL time and who are currently listed in the Sex Offender Registry who were also 13 or 14 at the time of their offense. This is a FELONY, regardless of age. Yes, counseling is good. He could get that in jail.

  • datch

    Yes, I get the feeling that the girls wouldn’t want to expose him…after all, they live in a family where the repeated sexual molestation of young girls–with all the permanent and devastating damage that that causes–is deemed far less important than the reputation of the boys and men. Who would speak up under those circumstances? If you think that they “wanted it”, you are as bad as an offender.

  • Jim Reed

    They would never do that. They are grown now anyway.

  • datch

    No. Victims are NOT to blame for sexual assault and molestation. EVER.

  • datch

    No, we’ll have to wait for his daughter to be molested to give him that title.

  • datch

    A 14 year old male and a 5 year old female is not “two teenagers screwing.”

  • Jim Reed

    I have been thinking about why I have the psychopathy turned up to 11, and I think I have the answer. This is about the quiverfull movement or more precisely about airing the dirty laundry. Given that, it seems like the best thing to do is inflate the conversation as much as possible and make sure no potentially interesting areas of discussion are skipped. Hopefully everything has been covered satisfactorily.

  • c_mclaughlin

    This is the whole problem with the patriarchal, fundamental “Christian” thinking. These men and boys, think they have a right to women, their age or consent has no meaning to these people. Women are to submit, because they have a god given right to their bodies.

  • c_mclaughlin

    More than likely they were threatened by the family. And any loss of “purity” by girls, not males of course, is considered a sin. This is the world that the conservative Christians want all of us to live in. Male dominated and where women have no rights at all, no matter what their age.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    You really really need to educate yourself about domestic abuse – which is what this is – before spouting off on the subject. Not having done so, you just sound like a pervert.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    Troll.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    The “girls” did speak up, but in their little patriarchal tribe, their voices weren’t heard. Why are you working so hard to blame them for their own victimization?

  • Margaret Whitestone

    You are a sick freak.

  • seashell

    That “cop” who gave Josh a “stern talking” is now serving 56 years in prison on child pornography charges. We can’t provide links anymore – so Google this for InTouch magazine:

    Jim Bob told police in 2006 that when Josh returned home in 2003, Jim Bob, accompanied by some of his church elders, took Josh to Arkansas State Trooper, Jim Hutchens. Jim Bob knew Hutchens personally. Hutchens did not take any official action and instead gave Josh a “very stern talk.” As In Touch magazine reports exclusively in this week’s issue, Hutchens is now serving 56-years in prison for child pornography. He took no action on the Duggar case.

  • seashell

    +10. Thank you

  • Everhope

    Isn’t it wonderfully redeeming that Duggar turned himself around (who can believe that) as a result of what his behavior would do to “his” life. Yes, a good Christian. Might be nice if this douche bag was a bit more worried about how his criminal behavior affected his victims. Just saying, you know…

  • Memphis Kitten

    This type of sexual behavior occurs when children are not informed about sexuality in the real world. He should have been mandated to see a real therapist at that time and hopefully this behavior is not ongoing. I’m sorry, but this family has never been role model material in my eyes. Teaching abstinence while having 20 children probably caused some mixed messages for Josh.

  • Kevin Bailey

    Yes, he could. And depending on what a jury would’ve decided, he might actually HAVE had to go to jail, though I doubt it. It sounds like there would’ve only been one of his victims pressing charges, as the other 4 (his sisters) would likely not have been cooperative witnesses, given the dysfunction going on in that home at the time. The Duggars did ALL of their children a disservice by sweeping this under the rug, both the victims and Josh himself.

  • golffuul

    Yes…I would. I would love for you to explain to me why we are reveling in the fall of someone who was propped up on a pillar by people who have nothing better to do with their lives than watch reality tv. That this person was able to parlay their prestige into a lobbyist position should really call to question just how intrinsically linked politics and the pseudo-reality of the entertainment world really are.

    Again…and logical or sane person would be laughing at the sheer absurdity that people somehow value the entertainment world (to include politics) over the reality of day to day life. That we sit idly by while entire countries are being slaughtered. That we don’t even think twice about millions of people starving.

    So yes…an explanation of why it matters so much to see one person fall from a height that 1)should never have seen the light of day, legally and 2) should never have happened in the first place if people actually cared more about the real problems in this world and not the ultra-divisive hysteria that people seem to be more concerned with.

  • golffuul

    Millions of people starving every day. 1000’s upon 1000’s being slaughtered for being of a different faith.

    That this man is even on the radar of “things to be worked up over” is absolutely ludicrous.

  • http://moderateleft.com Jeff Fecke

    “If this was rape that would be different.”

    THIS WAS RAPE. He fondled the girls’ gentials without their consent! What is your major malfunction?

  • http://moderateleft.com Jeff Fecke

    Let he who has not molested a child cast the first stone. (*throws stone*)

  • Alisa Terry

    Are you kidding me?? Sexual assault victims feel fear and shame when they are attacked. They feel afraid to tell someone because they feel responsible, or in some cases even afraid for their safety. If they HAD welcomed his visits, they would have been too young to have appropriately consented, and it would still be considered sexual assault. Only an ignorant or sick individual would consider small children capable of consenting to sexual contact.

  • wagnerfilm

    “Just laughing at how everyone put him on the pedestal to begin with…”

    “Everyone” didn’t put him on a pedestal — only right-wing Christian nutbars who like this show and think of the Duggars’ bizarre breeding cult as a positive role model for families might have done so. Such as Mike Huckabee, who’s currently defending Josh’s crimes as “youthful mistakes.” Before you make assumptions about other people’s “delusions,” you ought to check your own first.

  • Amrit Pal

    Again and again i read about the psychos who pretend to be extra religious but are actually most evil people in the world.This World is upside down.

  • nunsuch

    The majority (10 of 19) of Duggar children are male. The VAST majority of sexual assault incidents in the U.S. Go unreported. These WERE reported, but in the fundamentalist culture of the Duggars, the VICTIMS are held accountable for what happened to them. They were not “pure” enough. You are a horrifying example of so muxpch that is wrong here. The girls “enjoyed” being assaulted? They could have stopped it? You are utterly without awareness of rape culture and how it is enabled. And you are the personification of “blaming the victimS.”

  • nunsuch

    So why speak out so loudly, repeatedly and offensively when you admit that you don’t know what you are talking about?

  • conjurehealing

    …some of us find all of these things to be reprehensible. Some of us pick and choose what offends us most. I suppose that this is appropriate.

  • Jim Reed

    Or at least the most hypocritical. Their world view tells them they are the people who are listening to God, and God is guiding them. Their world view tells them others not in their group are following the devil. This builds a sharp contrast with no middle ground. If they are right, everyone else is wrong. If they are wrong, there is no limit to the problems it causes. Their world is held together by meetings every week where all the people in the group can convince each other it is all true.

  • Jim Reed

    I think they call it quiverfull. Have as many kids as you can. When I was growing up, we thought that was also the Catholic strategy. The ultimate lesson here might be birth control, and having a family size that is right for the world, instead of making family size a competition to see what religion can grow the biggest.

  • Jim Reed

    This was a foolish thing to say. The girls were very young, and tried to tell the parents. Maybe after some time passes, someone else outside the family can make a movie about the truth of Duggar life, and Christian girls can learn the warnings here, and start to understand better ways to deal with these situations. At least then some value might come of it after the fact.

  • datch

    Fascinating. In all the past threads about the Duggars, fundamentalist Christians showed up en masse, posting attack after attack against anyone who would criticize this “godly” and “wonderful” family. Where are they now?

  • datch

    It woudln’t matter whether his victims pressed charges. He was found out, and he admitted to it. It’s a felony, with an admission of guilt.

  • datch

    Isn’t it interesting that so many of Jim Bob’s close friends have either stepped down from their jobs as a result of sexual abuse claims, been widely accused of sexual abuse and molestation, been convicted for child pornography, or are somehow or another apologists for child sexual abuse? How long before we find out that Jim Bob is in those social circles because he is one of them?

  • datch

    Actually, this type of sexual behavior occurs when one has been a victim of sexual abuse themselves. It’s only a matter of time before we find out who molested Josh in early childhood (like we don’t already know who it was.)

  • phatkhat

    Just because they were not penetrated – at least not with his penis – doesn’t mean they were not sexually assaulted/raped. You are being obstinately blind.

  • Jim Reed

    Maybe they are overwhelmed by the current response everywhere. There might be lessons here for Christianity in general. They were the overwhelming majority here, and often unquestioned. Now anything they say can draw an unfavorable response. They will need to learn to keep quiet and try to hide in the corner.

  • phatkhat

    Fundy girls are not likely to be allowed to read RD. Or anything other than the Bible and books on motherhood/cooking/etc.

    SOMEHOW, the word on Josh got out. Which means at least one girl told someone. But in that culture, they close ranks and keep it quiet. They don’t go to authorities, they go to the preacherMAN. Who mansplains it all away, blesses the male, condemns the female (who was asking for the abuse), and that’s that.

    JimBob is a powerful man. He used to be an Arkansas politician, and he has a lot of friends in high places. Look, Mike Huckabee is defending them. Somehow, a judge was already convinced today to expunge the record to protect one of the victims who is still a minor! (So she must have been 4 or 5 years old when Josh abused her, and that will reveal her identity, which is why it was expunged.)

  • seashell

    We can only wonder, datch!

  • phatkhat

    Sort of like the FRC saying Josh resigned because a youthful indiscretion “became public”. They don’t care, as long as it doesn’t become public and reflect badly on THEM. The girls are of no consequence – they are only girls. (Sort of like girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban, no?)

  • seashell

    Indeed. But if Michelle Duggar could still send out robo calls last year that demonized LGBT over the use of public restrooms, even while she knew her own son had abused 5 little girls, have lessons been learned?

  • Jim Reed

    It would make a good subject for a made for TV movie, “Real Christians”.

  • annonimouse

    And based on the ages of the kids, The oldest possible females were 6, 7, 11 and 12.

  • Octoberfurst

    I can’t believe you keep saying that the girls probably “wanted it”. You are either a troll who is just trying to get people upset or you yourself are a pervert. (I tend to think it is the latter.) Go away.

  • Jim Reed

    I’m not saying that any more. From the first reports, I thought the girls were a little older, like 12, and weren’t telling the adults. Now I see, they were young girls. This totally changes the problem to one where they are not protected by the adults. Now I am saying it is up to fundamentalist girls to watch out for and protect each other because fundamentalist adults can’t be trusted. Adult male fundamentalists don’t care too much about this issue, and adult female fundamentalists are afraid to confront it because of what the males in charge might say. This is the message that the girls need to learn.

  • Monica Faith Ussery

    actually they DID believe the one who came to them, which is what led to his confession … and as someone who has worked with adults who were sexually abused as children, they did more than most family members who are told similar things … which is, yes, very sad and unfortunate.

  • aebhel

    Yeah, Jim, I think it’s totally likely that five year olds are getting off on being sexually assaulted by their older brother.

  • aebhel

    The important thing here is that Josh is the least to blame. Those kindergarten-aged hussies who tempted him, the other sleeping children who didn’t stop him…they’re the ones who are the most to blame.

  • phatkhat

    And if they did believe her, and questioned the boy, and then swept it under the rug… That’s even worse, if such is possible. There has been a massive coverup, from the family to the judge who expunged the record today. Shame on the lot of them!

  • Jim Reed

    After waiting all this time for Christianity to fall, now it seems kind of anticlimatic. Just not as satisfying as I thought.

  • Memphis Kitten

    You’re right, that could absolutely be a possibility as well.

  • cranefly

    Couldn’t hurt. Children should not be seen as ideological weapons.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “But you DO realize that he himself was only 13 at the time, right?”

    Irrelevant. Wrongdoing is wrongdoing. And immorality within the heart of a family that brazenly trumpets its supposed high morals to the universe is hypocrisy. Period. In addition, this story involves a cover-up, which was orchestrated by grown adults, not minors.

    Re: “They shouldn’t have covered it up, and should have gotten him REAL counseling, but you don’t lock a 13 year old up and throw away the key for that kind of thing.”

    You’re right that they shouldn’t have covered it up. But they did … and they should be held accountable for that, even if they demand otherwise. As for “throwing away the key,” that’s a straw man … no one is seriously asking that to have been done.

  • cranefly

    Really great comment.

  • wenfen

    Think about this: You are a sick little fuck.

  • wenfen

    How about this, dickwad,…..Josh Duggar and every other pedophile should just keep their fucking dirty hands off of little girls and boys! Why is it the responsibility and “job” of the “fundamentalist girls” to make sure they don’t get sexually assaulted??? Are you really this stupid??
    I am truly worried about Josh Duggar’s little girl, by the way. Believe me, his little hobby didn’t go away just because he prayed to Jeebus.

  • Everhope

    Doesn’t Duggar rhyme, oh, yes, a poet am I, with Bugger? Maybe if Jim Bob and his poor overburdened wife had been more into Hum Buggery they might not have set loose a pervert onto their daughters & the world..

  • Everhope

    I think I’ll call my memoir, Youthful Indiscretions or Why a Pervert is Allowed to Roam Free while Claiming to be an oh so Christian, Christian. Do you think it has legs?

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t think it matters what you think Josh “should” do. The girls SHOULD learn to protect themselves because they BELONG to the fundamentalist church, and the adults in that church WON’T protect them. They should NOT rely on their father. Their mother won’t help much. If they elect Mike Huckabee as their president, he won’t protect them, although he would protect Josh. Should the fundamentalist girls NOT protect themselves, they are screwed.

  • Jim Reed

    Maybe shorten it a bit,

    Josh Duggar, Home on the Range

  • Emma

    It started when he was 14, until he was 17. Even after it was discovered,he continued to molest the girls. He should be registered as a sex offender.

  • Mica Croxton

    Actually when my older sister told my family that our uncle had messed with her, no one believed her. But I did. Because I knew he did cause he molested me. I wanted to say something then. I was scared. They didn’t believe her and she was sent to a youth counseling center for teens who act out. So why would they believe me. How it appears on the outside isn’t always what it really

  • Jim Reed

    Do they know now? That seems like something that would have big consequences for family relations as a whole for the rest of your life.

  • Everhope

    Sounds good to me.

  • Jim Reed

    Its a dual purpose title. It could be your memoir, and it could also be his next reality show.

  • Everhope

    Ah, man, I want a reality show, too. But the reality is I abhor them. Oh, well…

  • seashell

    golffuul, not speaking for anyone else, and having never seen an episode of the TLC show, I don’t take delight in the downfall because of the victims involved. However, I have seen and heard Josh Duggar demonize LGBT people as possible child predators and molesters, not fit to use public bathrooms with young children around.

    I don’t think anyone here cares about the TV show or how it was or was not scripted. I’m betting most of us didn’t watch it. It’s the ultra-conservative Christian mindset and the chokehold it has on a political party that is objectionable and very much a part of the real world. For LGBT people it’s also very much a problem in day to day life.

    Your concern for the rest of the world is admirable, but smacks of self-righteousness. Your take on the part politics plays in the slaughter of “entire countries” or the “millions of people starving” is grossly uninformed. The next time you want to give a lecture on what sane and logical people would do, don’t. You don’t meet your own qualifications.

  • sobir momin

    I have a message to all mankind. I appeal to all European nations because of your roots is the truth of God passed through the prophets Moses, Jesus. That’s why you above idiolgiey, world view, culture than any other people on earth. Until today, after the prophet Jesus was not a prophecy. Last Prophet, whom your ancestors had predicted, he is here today. He warned the ruling powers of the coming disasters and terrorism. Like all of the time prophecy did not want to listen. Today we see that the warrior and disasters are becoming more and more every day. A new era of a new civilization, followed him we can with the help of God to change the world for the better. It would not have thought it was true. I witnessed a lot of facts. One of the facts. When the commission made him insane verdict, the same day there was a terrorist attack in New York.

  • Jim Reed

    It seems like the production aspects of creating this family must have occupied a great deal of the parent’s time for several years. There would have to be periods when they put Josh in charge. You have to expect that might take its toll, because remember we are not living in a perfect world. When everything is considered, you might have to say things worked out well for the most part.

  • joeyj1220

    Jim, I have followed your comments here on RD for quite some time engaging you every now and then and even agreeing with you on some points when you have criticized organized religion. Unfortunately, with your jaw-dropping, indefensible, vile comments you’ve totally shown yourself to be completely irrational and unbelievably short sighted, even as commenters here were calling you out. You often have spoken about the damage religious people do in the world… and yet with your comments you have shown that one doesn’t need to be religious to be a major, out of touch A-hole.

  • sobir momin

    I have a message to all mankind. I appeal to all European nations because of your roots is the truth of God passed through the prophets Moses, Jesus. That’s why you above idiolgiey, world view, culture than any other people on earth. Until today, after the prophet Jesus was not a prophecy. Last Prophet, whom your ancestors had predicted, he is here today. He warned the ruling powers of the coming disasters and terrorism. Like all of the time prophecy did not want to listen. Today we see that the warrior and disasters are becoming more and more every day. A new era of a new civilization, followed him we can with the help of God to change the world for the better. It would not have thought it was true. I witnessed a lot of facts. One of the facts. When the commission made him insane verdict, the same day there was a terrorist attack in New York.

    воскресенье, 24 мая 2015 г. пользователь Disqus написал:

  • Carnice F. Armstrong

    Good Lord, please tell us you aren’t serious. That you simply have a horrible sense of humor. Or at least that you are very young with no real sense of what the term “abuse” encompasses. You can’t possibly be saying that little girls (any group of little girls) not only want to be repeatedly fondled and abused, but that they also enjoy said abuse. As such, they did’t tell…so that their desired abuse can continue without interruption. 🙁 This can’t be life.

  • Jim Reed

    I was just checking to make sure we weren’t skipping anything important in this discussion. The first reports kind of made it seem like something was being held back. Now we are getting a good view. After all, this is America’s most statistically significant family.

  • Jim Reed

    Yes, I understand that now. With the first reports, I was thinking the girls were older, like 12. Also maybe I didn’t have a true appreciation for the parental fundamentailst mind, sins are to be forgiven and forgotten in a secret confession. I think my sense of humor is good, although I would wonder about the sense of humor of anyone who includes emoticons in the middle of a post.

  • MM06840

    Where was their chauvinistic father and robot mother when all this was going on? Making more kids.

  • Kevin Bailey

    Unless I’m misunderstanding, the “17” part was when the Duggars finally spoke with authorities about it–after conveniently waiting the 3 years necessary for the statute of limitations to expire. I am NOT defending these people–particularly the parents. Every step of the way, this has been a blatant cover up.

  • Kevin Bailey

    “Throw away the key” is just a euphemism in this case. My main point was that you don’t punish a 14 year old the same as you would if he’d done this as a 25 year old. Should he have spent some time in juvie, with some REAL counseling? Yes.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “My main point was that you don’t punish a 14 year old the same as you would if he’d done this as a 25 year old.”

    As I explained originally, his age has no bearing on the inherent hypocrisy involved here, of a family that trumpets its supposedly-impeccable moral purity to the universe but purposely ignores a lack of it within its own members. And poor put-upon little Joshie-poo was never punished … at all! … not even as a juvenile.

    And that brings up another issue that never gets discussed: All the adults involved here, who should have ensured that poor put-upon little Joshie-poo was punished, as a juvenile, for his moral and criminal failings, all conspired to ensure he never actually would be punished, not even as a juvenile. They all successfully squashed this long enough to make sure it would never be prosecuted.

    Please, go ahead and instruct me again as to this family’s supposedly high morals. Please, go ahead and show me how their refusal to permit their little pervert to be punished … and their defenders’ machinations to ensure this wish came true … isn’t an example of militant Christianist hypocrisy. You just go right ahead and explain that to me — if you dare.

    (Once again, poor put-upon little Joshie-poo’s age at the time of his perversion is not relevant since I’m talking about the actions of his parents and other adults, including how the Duggars presented themselves to the world as standard-bearers of high Christianist morality, when they damned well knew they weren’t any such thing.)

  • sdnative1958

    Well said – I have friends that are heterosexual Christians – nothing like fundies at all. Thanks for that.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    The only mistake in this statement is an assumption that “Christians” like the Duggars were ever interested in practicing Christianity to begin with.

    Homosexuality is so important to the Religious Right because, of all the things listed as offenses in the Bible, gay sex is the only one that most of them have never been tempted to commit.

    The Duggars and their supporters are not true Christians, plain and simple, because they have no actual interest in PRACTICING Christianity. At best, they cast themselves as Christians — they ACT Christian. But at their cores, all they really care to do is wear a religious label and pretend that automatically makes them better than the entire world around them.

    People have a natural tendency to try to overcompensate for their greatest faults. Stupid people love to weigh in on topics they know nothing about, crooks and frauds love to flaunt their wealth, repulsive people can’t shut up about their sex lives, etc., etc.

    So if you ever want to find the most evil person on Earth, you can narrow it down to the ones that can’t shut up about how effing Christian they are.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    The Duggars belong to the same sect of Americans as Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Mark Sanford, Phil Robertson, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Scott DesJarlais, Joseph Farah and Donald Trump: The sect that believes Republicans can do no wrong and Democrats can do no right — that believes that, as members of the Religious Right, they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want and STILL beat their gums about how much holier they are than the rest of us.

    Jim Bob Duggar could have been caught recreating the murders from Se7en and these “Christian” blockheads would still be firmly behind him.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    Oh we get it perfectly: You’re trying to excuse what he did by blaming the victims.

    The difference here is that, unlike you, we do not make excuses for anyone just because they happen to have the same religion and/or sex organ as us.

    Jim Reed, you are shit incarnate. You are proof that there is no Hell, because if there were such a place, there wouldn’t be a pit deep enough for the likes of you.

  • Kelly Babbit

    I am a republican since age 16 but I am having serious issues with the support of this from so many fellow republicans. I will leave the party if it continues. BTW most Teens that sexually offend were offended early in their life. Which only confirms my gut feeling watching these breeders was correct.

  • colkoch

    The Duggars were just another TLC freak show but they were too infatuated with their celebrity status to understand that and too GOP stroked to even care. Poor Huckabee, it’s gotta be tough when you’ve tied your campaign to rogue dog.

  • Jim Reed

    Why Republican? If you are rich and want all the laws set up to favor the rich getting richer, then it makes sense to be Republican. If not, then why?

  • colkoch

    That’s what really gets to me about this is they took on the TV show after they knew all about Josh’s sexual activity with their own daughters. And then to have the audacity to acuse gay men of a penchant for sexually abusing children is too much. It does not speak to their Christianity but to Jim Bob’s unbelievable level of narcissism.

  • colkoch

    It was also traditional family incest. I believe there are verses in the OT story of Lot that speak to traditional family incest. Those always get left out though.

  • colkoch

    The abuse happened before the TV show, even before the pilot.

  • Jim Reed

    Thanks. I meant producing the family, not the show.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    You are one sick, sad person.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    You are one sick, sad, perverted person.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    You are one sick, sad, perverted person. And your attempts to turn you sick, sad, perverted ideas into some kind of intellectual game just show you up as all the sicker and sadder. We’re talking about human beings and suffering here. It’s not a game.

  • Jeremy

    I’d say they are true Christians.

  • Jeremy

    That is what idiots do.

  • Commander McBragg

    So the sin of one young man has been exposed giving rise from the world to demonize all Christians and accuse them of hypocrisy. If this had been committed by a predominate liberal, nothing would had been said. The truth is we are all hypocrites. the difference is a Christian falls into sins and loathes it. A non Christian fall into sin and loves it. Misery love company…Just ask any secularist.

  • Commander McBragg

    Absolutely! I believe that every working person should have an additional payroll tax of 15% – 25% levied against them and given to the poor unemployed.

  • Kevin Bailey

    Who are you even talking to? Because nothing I wrote merited your angry rant here.

  • Jim Reed

    The gap between rich and poor has risen 10 fold in my lifetime. The super rich are getting very wealthy because it seems all of the increase in the nation is going to them. Would it be possible to tax them a little more, more like things used to be, so that we don’t have to take so much from everyone else? For the non-rich, wages have been stagnating or dropping, and in the Bush crash they started losing pensions and health care, then losing jobs, then losing houses. No matter what happens, the rich keep getting richer and things are unbalanced.

  • Jim Reed

    The parents must have been occupied, and this happened, whatever it was. I don’t think we have heard the whole story yet. If the story ever does come out, it might be a healing experience for fundamentalist Christianity in general.

  • Jim Reed

    They made themselves the model Christian family that other Christians would be encouraged to follow. This could become a learning example for fundamentalist Christianity in general. It would be up to the girls if they want to make something good of this. They could band together, and tell the story of what happened from their point of view. How many of them knew what was going on? Probably all of them. Did they talk about it among each other? If not, that would be the first big mistake that they should get across to other Christian girls so that they would be better prepared to handle a situation like this. The hard questions would be about what the girls could do if the adults in their life weren’t listening. They might have to find out ways to get beyond the adults, and solve this kind of problem themselves. In the end, you could say what is a sister for? They can help each other, and by talking about it they could help the world.

    If this is too much for them right now, maybe 10 years down the road they could write a book.

  • Laurence Charles Ringo

    WHAT??

  • Jim Reed

    We just think it would be better if they opened up and came clean about the incident. We know there is occasionally sin in the world, but there is also the question of how we deal with this kind of situation. What happens when the room full of sisters of various ages sees this happening? What should they do? How should they react? The temptation might be to keep silent and pretend this was not happening to your sisters, but there is pretty much agreement that this would not be the best approach. The question becomes what can the sisters do? First thing, they should probably be honest with each other and talk about it. Then they can make good decisions. If the nation can learn this lesson, both Christians and non-Christians, then something good would have come of it. Under the circumstances, that is probably the best we could hope for.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “My main point was that you don’t punish a 14 year old the same as you would if he’d done this as a 25 year old.”

    First of all, dismissing what I said as an “angry rant” is merely your own subjective value judgement, and it doesn’t impress me. It also doesn’t make me wrong.

    Second, I was responding to your statement: “My main point was that you don’t punish a 14 year old the same as you would if he’d done this as a 25 year old.” I was attempting to explain to you — because obviously you missed it — that a major problem here is the adults involved being hypocritical Christianists. That this hypocrisy was triggered by a juvenile offender’s perversion doesn’t magically make it any less hypocritical.

    You’ve echoed Mike Huckabee in treating this as a merely juvenile offense which is of no account. I reminded you that it’s not, and that it’s the adults here who made the whole situation much worse than it needed to have been, and who disobeyed their own beloved Jesus by being hypocrites.

  • Rich

    I don’t typically revel in the misfortune of others, but I am happy to watch this family of hypocrites self destruct. It is the same satisfaction I get when one of the really evil characters on “Game of Thrones” finally gets the punishment that they deserve.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I have not “missed it” regarding the behavior of the adults here. I am utterly disgusted with how the Duggar parents have handled the situation, and I think that intentionally covering up child molestation so that the clock runs out on the statute of limitations should itself be a prosecutable crime. I also find Huckabee’s position despicable, in that he’s throwing his support behind Josh Duggar, when he should be advocating for the removal of statute of limitations from such crimes. My position that you don’t punish a 14 year old IN THE SAME WAY you punish a 24 or 34 or 44 year old for similar crimes does NOT mean I support Josh Duggar (I don’t) or his parents (I find their actions despicable) or Mike Huckabee. Please stop attributing viewpoints to me which I do not hold.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    If you hold all the positions you (now) say you do, then bringing up Josh’s youthful status was immaterial. Which leads me to wonder why you had to make a point of it … not just once, but twice? And why only now are you expressing even the remotest outrage over the Duggar parents, Huckabee, etc.?

  • joeyj1220

    tin foils hats on sale at Walmart

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    “They might have to find out ways to get beyond the adults, and solve this kind of problem themselves.”

    Considering that the adults created this intra-familial power structure precisely to disempower, devalue, degrade and dehumanize the females in the family, “getting beyond” them would mean getting out of the family entirely. That’s probably something social services should have taken care of a long time ago. Asserting that a group of deeply oppressed pre-adolescent girls are obligated to take on something like this by themselves is either simple-minded or sick, or maybe both. Are you bringing this nonsense in from the “men’s rights movement”?

  • http://www.devonnollforpresident2012.org Devon J. Noll

    Actually they could have locked him up. My daughter’s rapist started at that age, molesting boys and his sister. When they finally locked him away at age 15, he did 65 months at a prison boot camp for young boys. He was determined to be a Type 3 offender, which meant that he was only a danger if he drank or did drugs, so they put him on parole, where for about nine months he stayed straight. (His mother gave him beer to celebrate getting off parole). Of course, during those nine months he moved in with an older gal and her young son, and they moved into a building with underage children, so the parole officer had to make him move out of his girlfriend’s apartment and notify everyone in the building that he was a registered sex offender. He targeted my then pregnant daughter, and weaseled his way into her life. When she threw him out a year later because she caught him with a 14 year old girl, he came back and raped her. He only had to register as a sex offender until he was 35, so now he, at 41, is below the radar and able to practice his predation across this nation without fear of showing up on any police records.

    Duggar did not get counseling in any reasonably accepted way, and even if he did claim responsibility for his actions, he did not have to suffer the consequences of his actions the way others have had to do. He is a fraud, and I can guarantee that he will prey again, it is only a matter of time. My daughter’s ex took his game on the road as a long haul trucker and now he and his wife have custody of one of the other children he fathered. Josh Duggar is no different, and for all his claims of Christian values, he is a fraud and a monster.

    As for his family, they knew he would go to jail, that is why they waited three years for the statues to run out so he could not be prosecuted. I do not know which is more repugnant to me – Josh Duggar’s behavior or his parents’ sanctimonious claims to being good Christians as they wage war on people who are not straight.

    Here’s a news flash for you, Mr. and Mrs. Duggar: most pedophiles (and yes, that is what your son is and will always be) are straight men, and they pose more of a danger to children than the LGBT community as whole. Being Christian under your practices will only make it easier for them to prey on young people, not more difficult. So clean up your own pig sty, before you go slinging mud at others!

  • Jim Reed

    It would be good if they could be given a chance to speak. They grew up in that environment, but they are grown up now, and they have exposure and a chance to speak out if they want. They could do an interview, or documentary, or write a book. They are in that rare spot of fame where they could speak and be heard. This would be their chance to do something to help other girls who are in the same kind of situation. If not these girls, then maybe someone else. Some women make it out of the scientology trap and they do speak out, and it turns out good for the world. It could be the same here for fundamentalists.

  • http://www.devonnollforpresident2012.org Devon J. Noll

    Jim, I have read many of your comments in the past, and even agreed with some, but this time, you have no comprehension of the situation.

    This is a family that is taught that sex is evil, that this kind of activity is wrong and that ANYONE who participates outside of marriage, and that includes the victims, are damned. Do you really think that a small child who has been trained to believe that their souls will be damned will tell anyone? The greatest tool Josh Duggar had was the teachings of Christianity that his parents force fed these children – the girls kept quiet not because they should, but because they believed that THEY had sinned and that was why Josh kept after them, as God’s punishment.

    This is not right, but we are talking about small children who live in fear of God, their parents, and family rejection. The Duggars set up these girls to be molested and raped by not teaching them about a loving God who held them safe, but rather about how bad sex was (which considering how often they partook is rather hypocritical in itself), and how God would punish them if they ever let anyone touch them before they were married. These kinds of parents are the reason children do not report sex crimes to parents and teachers willingly – their parents make them the aggressor and villan, not the actual predator, and when it is the oldest son, the parents will do anything to protect the family name.

    If you support that kind of parenting, then I pity your children. If you do not, do not blame these victims for the actions of their parents and brother or their friend since some of the victims were not family members. These were small terrified children, and even the older girls would have been afraid to expose their brother for fear they would hurt their sisters. This is a family whose whole dynamic is based on fear – fear of parental anger, fear of God’s anger, fear of their church’s anger, and fear of being cast out by everyone they know. It is how fundamentalists control their families and their churches, and it is neither right nor Christian.

  • Commander McBragg

    Your are like so many others in the world…Always worried about what everyone else has and angry because “it’s not fair.” I would bet you are richer then the majority of the people in the world and yet complain about what you don’t have. Be content with what you have and quit complaining about what others have.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Michael,

    You write “Homosexuality is so important to the Religious Right because, of all the things listed as offenses in the Bible, gay sex is the only one that most of them have never been tempted to commit.”

    That’s crazy. Every child goes through close friendships, and every boy I have ever know goes through stages of being afraid of being homosexual, and quite differently, of fear of being called homosexual by other boys — boys shouting their way through their own fears.

    The obsession of *some* fundamentalists with homosexuality seems to me to be the acting out in public of exactly that pair of fears boys go through as one of the many interesting, or scary, parts of puberty.

    Cheers,

    -dlj.

  • Jim Reed

    That’s what the rich want everyone to do. They have been waging class warfare for a long time, now they want everyone else to not fight back, and don’t call it class warfare.

  • Jim Reed

    They were small children, but they are grown up, and fate has made them famous TV stars. I am hoping they will want to be open with the world about what happened and maybe help other girls from fundamentalist environments get through that kind of situation having the advantage of knowing what these girls now know. They might as well, because the old TV show is now gone, and can never again be what it was before. The girls are the only ones who can give some small measure of salvation to this whole mess. Now is their chance.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Huckabee? Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

    My advice is, Don’t buy a cancer cure from a guy who can’t cure cat scratch fever.

    -dlj.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Jim,

    That’s what it was, Dummy: a TV series about real Christians, made by real Christians, for real Christians. Duh….

    There may be some trying to be Christians in this world. I think I’ve met one or two in my lifetime. them Fundamentalists, some of them Charismatics. Mostly others. Good people.

    These real ones, however, are everywhere. A major menace. To humanity.

    -dlj.

  • Blank Ron

    What sort of awful, awful person must you be if the FRC is giving you an ‘award’?

  • Jim Reed

    No, I meant a movie call “Real Christians”, but using real actors, and made for a national audience. The “Real Christians” are providing a log of material that could make a movie. All you have to do to make it good is keep it honest.

  • Jim Reed

    Evangelical.

  • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

    Uh, no, I don’t get the feeling that the “girls didn’t want him to stop.” But I get the feeling that no one cared to hear their complaints until the outside girl complained.

  • Jim Reed

    That’s what we are trying to figure out. If everybody tries to keep it secret, then all we can do is speculate if we want to know the truth.

  • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

    Look–its not our business to “figure it out” but neither is it our business to slander the girls, as you have done, and speculate lewdly and stupidly on how they “should” have done this or that from their powerless situation as pre-teen girls in an incredibly midieval household in which they, as girls, have zero rights.

  • datch

    No, we can not only wonder. We can investigate. We can dig. We can uncover it.

  • Jim Reed

    Whatever was done before, I’m speculating on what they should do now. They are a national symbol of how people should deal with the hard problems of life, to their followers at least. We know the right thing can’t be to hide the problem and pretend it doesn’t exist. That can only lead to bigger problems in the end. Right now it is leading to more problems because we don’t have a clear view of the facts, and they are the ones who could fix that. Of all the people involved, they are probably the only ones who would fix it. It just takes being honest. It’s for the fundamentalist girls everywhere.

  • pennyroyal

    They are puritans and end up obsessed with sex and controlling the sexuality of every child as a result. There is much tasting of the forbidden fruit (the bodies of others), even with one’s sisters (sometimes with one’s sons or brothers). The family becomes a family cult, emotionally incestuous, if not sexually incestuous.

    The Duggars are like the Duck Dynasty men, the public face of neo-puritanism, even as they long for the sensual. The repression and over-focus on a doctrine of sin proves to be the biggest turn on there is. And also their downfall.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Jim,

    I don’t believe you for a second. What you want is to see a big budget movie saying what you say in your small way every day, “Nyah-nyah, look at this bunch of a-holes…”

    That doesn’t need doing because they’re doing it to themselves, pretty clearly and day to day.

    What we need is different. There are two themes that need much better daily, weekly, continuing, that need exploration in the media, it seems to me.

    One is a compassionate and detailed exploration of the troubles of the believers in these groups with their own points of view fairly presented.

  • pennyroyal

    One must remember that Christianity is pro-natalist, as are the Duggars. Having huge numbers of children is proof to other fundamentalists of god’s ‘gifts’ of children to raise in a godly path. And also of your prosperity (to be able to afford them).

    This goes back to the Old Testament when one expanded the religion by breeding huge numbers of children (and becoming a potentate). Today, the world’s environment is crushed by 7 billion and growing, yet all patriarchal religions are pushing a pro-natalist and, as well, politicians, too. There should be a healthy shame in all this but fundamentalists and right wing politicians (Mike Huckabee), keep supporting and promoting ever more insane levels of breeding.

  • pennyroyal

    True, they are stuck in an immature stage that they never get to grow out of. Religion keeps them as children.

  • pennyroyal

    Pedophile brothers are all too common in large families. They feel entitled to experiment and misuse their sisters. Females are second class, taught to be docile, and submissive. I don’t think most people understand how totalitarian a patriarchal family is. Especially a large one, and this one is huge. No parent has the time, energy, or kind of wellspring of love to be able to raise 19 children. That should be obvious. So the children are neglected emotionally, never getting their emotional needs met. Psychologically, this is devastating, of course.

  • Jim Reed

    A real movie with real actors could do that, and also explore the side that is hidden from view. Like Meryl Streep’s Doubt movie. The title could be “Sure”.

  • lynne

    He was one month shy of 16 and one victim was 5. I would call that a pedophile.When the cops wanted JimBob to bring him in for an interview, Daddy lawyered up. Well, at least 2 lawyers turned Daddy down.

  • pennyroyal

    protecting a family member is very common, even if that person (father, brother) is abusing them. The loyalty is to god and family. It’s very confusing, but yes, children who are being abused will often deny the abuse to authorities to protect the family. Remember the family is everything to them and they are taught, daily, that the outside world is evil and full of sinful, bad people. So they are afraid to tell anyone outside the family.

  • pennyroyal

    thank you, for calling Jim on what does indeed seem like a ‘blame the victims’ comment.

  • pennyroyal

    Refugee: I’ll say this once and remember this. Children (boys are molested, too) and they wake up. One does not sleep through this, believe me.

  • pennyroyal

    You are hugely off base, Jim. In families like this, it’s everyone for him or herself. No one sticks up for anyone else. This is a patriarchal family. The only one with power is the father and his older sons.

  • lynne

    He won’t be so powerful now since the TLC money is gone. Also, he only had one term and he lost the next. Guess they didn’t like what he stood for.

  • Jim Reed

    The girls have grown up since then. Maybe they are ready to talk about it now. They might be protecting family, but once the whole world turns on the father that might change things. The best they could do would be to see the mother is a part of the coverup, and branch out on their own.

  • pennyroyal

    this is an area you seem ignorant of. Read some accounts of girls in sexually abusive families. The victim/s feel like pariahs. They are hugely shamed and stay silent, usually.

  • Jim Reed

    That is hard to accept. As the girls grow up, there should be a bond between sisters here. They should be talking about it, and working through issues. they are no longer ages 4 to 11.

  • pennyroyal

    he’s a dumb as a stump. I saw a clip of him trying, like twenty times, to get out a couple of sentences.

  • Jim Reed

    But what if there are several of them together? Can’t that help?

  • pennyroyal

    well said.

  • pennyroyal

    spoken by a man who’s had personal boundaries all his life. You have not one clue and are spouting misinformation.
    Girls in fundy families are not allowed to have personal boundaries. Their bodies belong to their father and to god. Josh is just a daddy substitute. What’s more common than brothers molesting sisters??? Father’s molesting daughters. Josh was just in training to be a god-the-father, head of the household, good-Christian-man. Stop spouting about what you know nothing about.

  • pennyroyal

    Thank you for saying this, Jeff.
    Anyone who invades your boundaries and fondles your genitals or your breasts is committing Rape!!

  • pennyroyal

    this notion of Jim’s shows his, and Freud’s, obsession with the penis. Rape is rape. Penetration is rape. Fondling is rape. And there is no “fondness” to it. This act is all about demonstrating his power over his own homegrown harem.

  • pennyroyal

    Damn, it. Why did you shut up before you started writing. Your assumptions are hurtful to anyone who’s been victimized like this. No wonder so many people stay as victims and never get to be ‘survivors’. Religion, patriarchy, obtuse commenters keep telling lies out of a willed ignorance.
    I used to like your comments but no more. Your have shown your true colors.

  • pennyroyal

    guess, Jim knows better how to be a girl or woman, than girls and women, to. Such arrogance.

  • pennyroyal

    did you even read the first reports and imagine what it was like to be those girls?? No, you ran to the computer to rant. Or so it seems.

  • pennyroyal

    why, when one can make their own tin-foil hat yourself? I’m sure the local fundy church or the science deniers will be happy to help a fellow fundy.

  • pennyroyal

    no, they are all shamed into silence, hoping he will go away. They don’t want this trouble in their lives. Josh was behaving shamelessly and the shame got dumped on them.

  • pennyroyal

    thank goodness for that. Daddy has no shame.

  • David

    Point to ONE source in which he was defended for his crimes. Unlike the pig Lena Dunham who was treated as practically a hero for her assaults on her sister. Damn liars on this site.

  • pennyroyal

    I’m going to be kind here and assume you were an only child and/or grew up in a family with good boundaries. The children in patriarchal families often do not help one another. Their world is dominated by fear of father and god.
    As for ‘working through issues’. I know people who died after a long life, still ‘working through’ their ‘issues.’ Abuse alienates a person from their body. Incest, more so. You also assume that fundy families go to therapists. They don’t. Or they go to untrained Christian therapists who do more harm than good. I know, I’ve met them. The father is always right and god was testing you and all sorts of claptrap.
    Just be a good man and apologize above for all the hurtful misrepresentations you’ve posted. Don’t lose the lesson here.

  • pennyroyal

    Newt Gingrich is now a Catholic.

  • David

    nope that honor goes to the bugger brigade that specializes in young boys, and to those who turn their backs in politically correct ignorance.

  • Jim Reed

    Things didn’t quite add up. How could a room full of girls not react to this situation? Everyone piles on Josh, which is fine, but there had to be more of interest here. I am not justifying him. I am just saying what is being covered up here? It did seem to inflate the conversation, and I think that ended up being productive. We might not have the whole story yet, but at least we seem to have a little more of it, and people seem to be engaged.

  • pennyroyal

    True, that. Invading a person’s bed or other personal space (bathtub, etc.) is sexual assault. Who does a child’s body belong to? The child. Anyone else is an intruder.

  • Jim Reed

    The lesson is everyone’s reactions. This is like the most productive thread ever, as far as discussing fundamentalist Christianity.

  • pennyroyal

    you ‘inflamed’ the conversation and refused to listen to the many people who were trying to educate and challenge you. Please don’t intrude in wanting to know all about this. It’s time for the therapeutic community to ensure they get the treatment they will need.

    I don’t think this discussion has been ‘productive’ at all. I am dismayed that you, someone I’ve always thought ‘got it’ doesn’t get it at all. And then continues in his mistaken notions and judgmentalism toward a group of girls in the same benighted family.

    Again, people are not engaged. They are enraged. With. You.

  • Jim Reed

    Sounds like a good topic for a TLC documentary.

  • pennyroyal

    maybe in your experience. The majority of posters have a knowledge base and an understanding of incest that you, apparently, are just learning now. Time to catch up, Jim, if you want to retain any shred of credibility.

  • pennyroyal

    Don’t you understand? TLC is complicit and enabling. TLC and other channels exploit human suffering and tragedy, for prurient reasons. (If you don’t know what prurient means, go look it up). TLC will continue to spread sleaze entertainment to ‘sell’ their channel and satisfy their sponsors. They care nothing about the Duggar family, except as the means to make money.

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t mind because their comments are about the fundamentalist environment.

  • Jim Reed

    Practicing Christianity means believing and going to church.

  • Jim Reed

    The important thing here is the discussion about fundamentalist Christiaity.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    The terrifying thing about this is that it will make not one bit of difference to American Christian fundamentalists. After all, if Swaggart, Haggard, Bakker, and the rest could be redeemed, why not Duggar?

    The terrifying part is twofold: First, the sheer number of Americans who identify this way and the political influence they wield; Second, the complete immunity of this group to any sort of disconfirmation or contravailing evidence.

    In short, tens of millions of Americans belong to a cult as demented and dangerous as Scientology — in many ways worse — and exercise enormous political influence, to the point of being able to decide the course of elections. If there were thirty million Scientologists exercising this sort of power, the rest of us would view it as a national emergency. But this demographic is treated not only as normal but in some ways, as normative.

    ‘Terrifying’ is the only word I can think of to describe this situation.

  • Jim Reed

    They are adults now. It is time for them to speak up. It would be therapeutic for them, and for the church at large. This is in the news now. Wouldn’t that be the best time? Look at the Bill Cosby situation. It was nearly silent for so many years. Then when things came out, it was an opportunity for others to speak up. That has to be good for them and the world.

  • Jim Reed

    I’m not sure shame ever got dumped on them. I think the blame and shame has been going to Josh and his dad.

  • gapaul

    Okay, true, but plenty of xians have been limiting their family size at least as long as contraception has been available. This year even the pope said it wasn’t necessary to “breed like rabbits.” Once upon a time, the whole world was pro-natalist — meaning, you needed as many kids living into adulthood as possible, to work your land or just take care of you.
    The problem is fundamentalism’s failure to see the world as changing.

  • pennyroyal

    NO! The important thing here is the discussion of how fundamentalist Christianity wounds children with its willful ideology of controlling and dominating people’s lives. What is important is the children, getting them healed, getting their lives back on track, limiting the parents’ power over their lives, so they grow up and have individual agency and choices in their future.

    What matters is that they go beyond being “survivors” to begin to thrive. To neglect them, to treat them as ciphers, to blame them(!!!!) is continue what fundamentalism stands for. They deserve to have their dignity and worth respected.

    So you can shut up now. You’ve done enough damage by using this family catastrophe to bash fundamentalism. I agree it’s bad but we must deal with the casualties, first, last, and always.

  • pennyroyal

    hahaha!! The pope said that as an off the cuff comment on the way to the Philippines to prop up the Catholic hierarchy’s attacks on the civil government, that at long last was starting to allow for some birth control. The Philippines has a high birth rate which the Catholics there have cheered up to now.
    Women are more than breeders, you know. You do know that?

  • Jim Reed

    Good analysis. I think with exposure they are shrinking a little bit, at least I hope they are. To me the danger from their numbers was at its peak when they elected Bush. They reinflated their power for his second election, but it seemed to me after that there was a certain letdown. He could up the pressure to win again, but he couldn’t quite keep at that level for the next 4 years, and the signs of decay started showing up right after that second election.

  • Jim Reed

    That’s what I meant. Good analysis.

    I think you off on that casualties part. We are talking about events from long ago. There is no way we can deal with the casualties anyway, other than exposing what fundamentalism is doing to try to help others see it. This is about fundamentalism, first and foremost, and that has the benefit of also helping the casualties.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Watershed? After Haggard? Swaggart? Bakker? What makes you think these people are *capable* of having a watershed moment?

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Fundamentalist Christianity, Haredi Judaism, and other extreme Abrahamic religious cults are pro-natalist. The mainline versions are not.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    So what does that make a liberal Episcopalian? A fake Christian?

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Are you…um…insane?

    Wait, don’t answer that.

  • Laurence Charles Ringo

    I am confused here,pennyroyal…Who was your post directed toward,and what exactly are you referring to?

  • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

    The Duggar family are grifters on a religious circuit, not thought leaders. And their daughters are their prisoners, not full members of the cult. They are not “national sysmbols of how people should deal with the hard problems of life” they are a fantasy of how certain religious beliefs and actions supposedly protect them (and their followers) from the evils that befall other, non religious, people. There is simply no way within this system for them to honestly admit to fault w/r/t their daughters or the education and upbringing of their son. Its not going to happen. To do so would be to expose their entire entire shtick as, well, shtick.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Does the parade of such cases not give you any pause at all? Bakker…Swaggart…Haggard…Hinn…Duggar….

    Put another way, would *anything* count as countervailing evidence? Or are you in the grip of an irrefutable theory?

  • Terri Hemker

    I didn’t understand one bloody word of his off topic comment….did you?

  • Blank Ron

    Oooh, snap!

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    I don’t believe you for a second. What you want is to see a big budget movie saying what you say in your small way every day, “Nyah-nyah, look at this bunch of a-holes…”

    That doesn’t need doing because they’re doing it to themselves, pretty clearly and day to day.

    What we need is different. There are two themes that need much better daily, weekly, continuing, that need exploration in the media, it seems to me.

    One is a compassionate and detailed exploration of the troubles of the believers in these groups with their own points of view fairly presented.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    (continued)
    In the case of the Mars Hill disaster, for instance, reading the news groups you see a variety of different groups of people quite inarticulate, but deep in their feelings that something went wrong. The press gives us the plausible story that Pastor Driscoll was a thug every day. Nowhere do we get the idea that Billy Sundays are just skilled workers serving a market, and asking who provides the market? Concomitant to this are, unrepresented in the press, the genuine Christians who shied away from going commercial, or expansive, or aggressive, or whatever you want to call it, back when the story started, years back.

    The second thing that is needed in public discourse is more in the way of what the “nones” can do. “Nones” is of course a perjorative term. It means “member of no organized religious group,” hence “none” as a check-box for the poll-taker, but carries a clear overtone of no-beliefs, no morality, no roots, etc. etc.

    Now these people are a clear and present danger. As long as churches existed and functioned people had notions of community, pupose, and the verification of truth close to their everyday life. Granted, that verification often meant listening to the preacher, but in the past “the preacher” didn’t mean your local representative of the Republican Party and the Koch brothers. It meant a guy you knew, whose words yo could weigh, and who got it right a good deal of the time.

    What do we have now? A loose mob of the half-educated who think that Doctors Oz and Phil represent science, the Avengers represent justice, and the History Channel is education.

    Where is there genuine ethical teaching out there in the media? Well, Oprah, but… Where is there community? My hypothesis is the commercial television is the way cultures commit suicide. Learning? Brian Greene on Nova going “Goo, goo-goo, it’s all a Big Wonder” ?

    Houston, we have a problem…

    -dlj.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Jim,
    I can’t make the editor work here,my own computer dying on me) so my overlong message is now in two parts, above.
    I haven’t seen the movie, but do admire Meryl Streep.

    My general point is that the so-called “nones” are doing the right thing, looking for something better.

    Who is providing the something better?

    The media aren’t.

    Given that searching people are often gullible, this is a dangerous phenomenon.

    -dlj.

  • Terri Hemker

    Next thing you know, they’ll be calling it ‘legitimate pedophilia’…

  • Terri Hemker

    I have actually had words with some on some other articles. Terrifying that they defend these people!

  • Terri Hemker

    If someone sexually or violently touched my child or grandchild, stoning would be the least of his worries.

  • Jim Reed

    True and fake are what Christians call each other. Outsiders don’t have to be involved in that discussion.

  • Jim Reed

    He’s a Republican looking for that lockstep fundamentalist vote. Catholic is his current tactical strategy.

  • Laurence Charles Ringo

    No,Terry,I didn’t…still scratching my head!! (Great to hear from you,by the way!)

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    You have made some very good points and lots to ponder pennyroyal…Thank You

  • Jim Reed

    I see two important issues here. One is Josh fondling his sisters, and the coverup. The other is the issue of what fundamentalism does to the girls so they can’t effectively act to protect their sisters for whatever fundamentalist reason. It seems they let their sisters be abused because they have no way to support or help their sisters in a fundamentalist environment, so they internalize the problem and try to ignore it. I would see this emotional damage that was done to the girls and their sister to sister relationships as possibly even bigger than the damage done by the abuse. I understand others will see the abuse as more important. I think this is an issue that we can agree to disagree on. We should be able to work on both, in fact there is actually a lot of overlap between these problems, and fixing one will also help with the other.

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    Huh??? Josh is to blame 100%. He knew exactly what he was doing; otherwise why hide it and apologize years later? An apology defines guilt.

  • Kevin Bailey

    It’s not “immaterial.” There IS a difference between a 13/14/15 year old offender and a grown man doing the same things. There just is. It doesn’t make what he did to his sisters and the family friend any less awful, but you punish (and rehabilitate) youthful offenders differently than adult offenders. That actually makes what his parents did even worse, in that they hid his crimes JUST long enough for the statute of limitations to run out, which basically precluded any court-mandated rehabilitation for their son, and raised the likelihood that he would reoffend. Bringing up the salient point about his age at the time of his crimes does not diminish in any way my other positions.

  • Eileen Farner Beyer

    They HAD to believe as a note with the nasty information was inside of a Duggar book that was loaned to someone outside of the family

  • pennyroyal

    again, you don’t ‘get it’, how much and how long survivors suffer. Most of the world would prefer to think of Bill Cosby as funky Doctor Huxtable. Most don’t look that deeply or care to think about the victims. It’s too hard to face or contemplate, how radically vulnerable children are. But once you wipe the good Christian or happy family facade off your eyeballs, you are forever an advocate for the abused of the world.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “It’s not ‘immaterial.’ There IS a difference between a 13/14/15 year old offender and a grown man doing the same things.”

    It IS immaterial where the adults are concerned. The Duggars clearly were hypocritical, holding themselves up as bastions of moral child-rearing when, in fact, they turned out not to have been. The state trooper who took the report ended up letting it rot, and for a reason … he was, himself, a pervert (later convicted of having kiddie porn). Josh was sent to a “treatment facility” run by a Christianist minister who, it turns out, had his own problems dealing with women.

    All of these are facts, yet none of them have anything to do with Josh’s age. His minor status did NOT compel the Duggars to squash this long enough to get by the statute of limitations. His minor status did NOT compel the trooper to let the report die. His minor status did NOT force Bill Gothard, who ran the Institute in Basic Life Principles, to abuse women himself. Josh’s age had not one thing to do with any of those. Yet they have everything to do with the moral failings of the Duggars and every other adult who should have dealt with this problem — but refused to because the Duggars are fellow Christianists who’re perfect and unassailable.

    To repeat one more time for clarity: Josh’s age was absolutely immaterial to the decisions made by the other adults (not minors) in his life who ought to have known better, but couldn’t manage to punish him.

    Re: “Bringing up the salient point about his age at the time of his crimes does not diminish in any way my other positions.”

    Bringing up Josh’s (young) age pretty much aligns with Huckabee’s own position, which was that this was a mere “youthful mistake” and that Josh didn’t really do anything wrong, what was done wrong here, instead, was that the media insolently reported it. It aligns with countless other Christianist defenders of the Duggars who have said various things such as “boys like to experiment,” “all kids do it,” etc. It’s the mantra that has been repeated ad nauseam by everyone else who, like Huckabee, is angry this got reported and neither can nor will admit there’s any hypocrisy or moral failing here.

    Again, Josh’s age does NOT in any way constitute a viable reason for the adults in his life to have done what they did. I’m not sure how much clearer that could be. And I’m not sure why you’d insist otherwise, if in fact you’re as repulsed by the Duggars and their boosters as you claim to be.

  • pennyroyal

    Please, Eileen, I thank you!
    I’ve defended victims so many times and I almost told JR to eff-off more than once. I didn’t do the things I’d planned today due to replying to him. I hoped I didn’t waste my time. But so many people here told JR that he was dead wrong, it was heartening to be part of this.

    There are many people who don’t believe that a nice clean-cut guy could possibly do bad things. They couldn’t be more wrong. Bill Cosby. Woody Allen has many defenders who will never believe that he molested his step daughter. It’s unbelievable how much suffering pedophiles cause. And those who would excuse or shield abusers are, to me, beyond the pale.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    You just destroyed your reputation on this website. No one will take anything you say seriously again. Or, likely, talk to you again.

    You blew it man. The best thing to do, at this point is walk away and stay away for a while. Maybe after a few weeks, things will cool down and you can come back.

    But if you keep pushing it, that day will be never.

  • pennyroyal

    False humility is so easy to offer but it’s purest humbug.
    True humility is inward and not for public show.
    It is seen by witnessing a change in the person, a new understanding of the wrongs done, and a commitment to help others from that day forth.

  • pennyroyal

    Often parents leave their older children to babysit. Too often this is a time when
    abuse takes place. They all needed far more supervision.

  • not_guilty

    Or fear that their offspring may “turn” gay if that status is insufficiently ostracized.

  • not_guilty

    A real counselor would have been required to report the abuse to law enforcement.

    One consequence would likely have been no TV show. Plus, separation of the offender from the victims and exposure of the family’s dysfunction.

    Who was it that said “If you have done it to one of the least of these . . .”?

  • not_guilty

    Isn’t it surprising how many of those who talk loudest about God walk in lockstep with Mammon?

    Well, maybe not so surprising to some.

  • pennyroyal

    “The love of money is the root of all evil” says the bible.
    And I say, the love of money destroys us and can destroy us as a nation. The religious right talks about the love of god but really, in their modern corrupt form, their love of Mammon is their first love.

    (Never cared much to have it myself. Boring stuff. Just need enough to live simply).

  • gapaul

    I didn’t defend the CC’s stance on contraception. Neither do most Catholic women in the US.
    Signed,
    A woman who doesn’t “breed.”

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Yup. Guilt. Fear. Guilt-tripping others. All the usual stuff we do to ourselves when we’re ignorant and scared.

    Cheers,

    -dlj.

  • https://www.facebook.com/david.lloydjones.391 David Lloyd-Jones

    Dan,

    Mars Hill was brought down by decent people within it.

    It was not reformed away by us on the outside, who would have been critics if we’d known about the sad, ugly little place.

    The pity is the tremendous lack of penetrating analysis, and self consciousness, in the sense of self-examination and understanding, not just embarrassment, among the people who brought about that huge disaster.

    Even without acute examination and understanding, enough people understand the obvious, that aggressive marketing of guilt-based religion is a steaming pile of codswallop, and therefore walk away from it.

    That’s genuine progress. Real people’s lives saved from years of ugliness and stupidity.

    And remember, any time you want a smile, membership in the Southern Baptists is dropping. As with Mars Hill, this is not the result of critics or mockery from the outside. It is decent ordinary people saying “Hey, this isn’t my idea of worship” (or any of many other reasons for simply not taking part in the scam any longer.)

    Americans are *good* people.

    Cheers,

    -dlj.

  • Terri Hemker

    You, too! I’m taking a hiatus from NCR. It’s getting boring…same old same old every day! Sigh! But I miss all of you guys! God bless!

  • Jim Reed

    I would guess the majority of the world doesn’t feel that way about Bill Cosby any more. They more or less feel for the victims, and not for him. In that whole Bill Cosby mess there is only one person who came out looking good. Tina Fey.

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t think that matters. This is about having the conversation. The conversation is about religion. Nobody needs to agree with anything. The best you can do is find something undeniably true to say, then let the cards fall where they may.

    In case you haven’t noticed, this Duggar thread isn’t finished yet.

  • Jim Reed

    I never said Josh wasn’t guilty, and never tried to excuse him. My whole point was consider what was going on in the girls room, from their point of view. Something didn’t make sense, and we probably still don’t have the whole story straight. We have kind of concluded the girls all just watched their sisters being abused, and didn’t do or say anything because they are fundamentalists. That just doesn’t quite make sense to me, and I think there might be more to it than that. They are making themselves the example Christian family for the rest of the nation to watch, so I think it is fair to ask the girls. Did you talk about these things with your sisters? With your mom? Once again, I am not justifying Josh. I just think the girls are a more interesting topic here, and an area of potential educational value to other girls and the nation as a whole.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Thanks for this David. It’s hard to remember sometimes.

    I’m doing something on Genesis and the impact of its interpretation on Judaism/Christianity soon, over at the home blog. Should be up in a few days. Keep an eye out — I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    I see you’re going to keep pushing it. Really dumb, man.

    You overestimate your importance or the importance of this one conversation. There is a community here, one of which you are a part, and you’ve seriously offended many of the people in it. Now is the time for quiet and some mature self-reflection, with apologies later.

    But wisdom is not something you’ve ever evinced. So, I suspect you’ll just keep pushing.

  • Jim Reed

    This is kind of a rare view into the workings of fundamentalist churches. What Josh Duggar did was bad, but bad things happen. There was a bigger opportunity here than just piling up on him. People have that part well handled. The truly interesting thing in this story was how it worked from the point of view of the girls. I think this was different from other situations because there was several sisters together in the same room, who must have known what was happening to the others. It was not like a story of women kidnapped and held at knifepoint. What was the story here? How did the girls see it? What did they do about it, or could they do about it? It all ties back to a fundamentalist environment, and I think it is worth it to explore the situation. It would be a shame to say this story is about Josh, and what punishment he could or couldn’t face after statutes of limitations. This is a story about fundamentalism, and truth be known, Josh might be the least interesting part of this story. The girls, the parents, the churches, TLC, Mike Huckabee, all those aspects of it are more interesting than Josh, but especially the girls are. I don’t think we can expect anything of value from any of those others, but with the girls there is at least the potential to make something more of this, and find a little bit of educational value for fundamentalism, and the nation. That is what I would like to see. One or more of the girls be willing to open up about this story as an individual, or a group. If they are still under the spell of the fundamentalist church, perhaps in time they might awaken from that. The Cosby women woke up after some decades. The same is at least possible here.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    “That is what I would like to see. ”

    ———————————————-

    Nice to just ignore everything I said.

    Don’t you get it? At this point, no one cares what you “would like to see.”

  • Kevin Bailey

    This is very true. They “ran out the clock” by waiting long enough for the statute of limitations to have run out.

  • Kevin Bailey

    Nowhere did I even HINT that his age made what the ADULTS in his life at that time did. Nowhere did I say his age meant that he shouldn’t have been held legally and morally accountable for what he did. Nowhere did I say that the media is overreacting to this (a key tenet of the despicable Huckabee’s defense). The adults in his life at that time failed MISERABLY in every way. Primarily, they failed to protect his sisters from him, by delaying reporting for so long. Additionally, I doubt very seriously that they ever got the girls any REAL counseling. They also failed Josh Duggar himself by not requiring that he “face the music” legally for what he did.

    Don’t compare me to Huckabee again. His viewpoint and my own are diametrically opposed on this matter. I find the Duggars’ actions despicable with regards to Josh molesting his sisters and family friend(s).

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    You seem to be evolving right in front of our eyes:

    Jim Reed, 4 days ago:

    “The Duggars have lots of kids, and most of them are girls, and Josh is sneaking into their room in the middle of the night while they are ‘asleep’, and you think they are afraid to expose him because they would be blamed? I just can’t see how it can work that way. I think they had the option to do something about it if they wanted to. It is not like one frightened girl alone who is being attacked and threatened with a knife to her throat. I sympathize with all you women who were attacked by a brother or whoever, and felt you couldn’t do anything about it, but I just don’t think it is that way in this room full of Duggar sisters.”

    With 300-plus comments on this thread, I may well have missed the one where you acknowledged how wrong your initial reaction was and promised to relinquish your blame-the-victim mentality. Which, based on your latest remark, still needs quite a bit of work.

  • Jim Reed

    I did make 2 or 3 comments in this thread that some might say were questionable, but that one you quote here still seems pretty accurate to me. I am not excusing Josh in any way, or taking his side, but the real question here is how were the girls reacting to this situation? They knew their sisters were being abused, along with themselves. How should a girl react? How should a sister react? Maybe we don’t have the whole story yet. Is this just a case of the fundamentalist environment making it impossible for girls to do anything, even if there are 5 of them in the room, and even if they know their sisters are being fondled, down even to the 3 or 4 year old? Is there anything the girls can teach us about this situation, and their reaction? If not, then what do we have to conclude about the fundamentalist environment? Fundamentalism needs to be judged here whether they want to open up or not. These are important issues. Josh is the least interesting aspect of this story. It should be about the girls, and their fundamentalist religion. This is NOT blaming the girls. This is just saying that is where the story is. We have nothing to learn from Josh about any of this. We still have a lot to learn from the girls, when they get to the point where they want to talk about it.

  • NewAndImprovedCM

    Oops, back to the reptilian stage.

  • Louise

    I am so furious at all your posts on this story that I want to scream. What the heck is wrong with you??? You are a daily commenter on this site and appear to have a brain. Today I’m not so sure. This is the first time you have displayed a horrifying ignorance about the topic of sex abuse/sex assault. Your suggestion is to blame the victims – ALL were female children – for not protecting their siblings?? What rock did you just pull yourself out from under? Children are NOT responsible for the illegal and immoral acts of others, even their brothers. Full stop.

    Shame on you for unloading the responsibility from adult family members to young girls. You need to educate yourself on the facts about sexual assault and sex abuse. You seem to be clueless about what bodily violations do to a person (usually a female) psychologically. This is an issue where victims are still made to feel it was their fault for the crime, that they brought it on themselves and/or they are lying (because they never reported it). The vast majority of sex assaults are not reported because of this. The police, the courts and ignorant people like yourself contribute to a hostile climate for assault victims.

    Go get educated.

  • Louise

    Is this the first time you have ever heard of the concept of sexual assault?? You sound like someone from a century ago!!

  • Louise

    I thank you for your posts to JReed. I am completely gobsmacked at his ignorance! Thank you for your rational discussion.

  • Louise

    You know absolutely nothing about family dynamics about sex abuse. Are you prepared to say each and every person in the world who was sexually abused by a family member (or close friend) really should have spoken up?? Are you completely crazy!!

  • Louise

    The fact that you see this story as merely a conduit for your anti-religion stance makes you even more disgusting. Get help or get off this site.

  • Louise

    Who care if they were 4 years old or 14 years old?! They were abused. Period. What the hell kind of answer is that it would be okay if they were older children??

  • Louise

    News flash: sex abuse of a 12 yr old is still illegal and immoral!!!!

  • Louise

    No, the story is about children being sexually abused. Get out of your ideological straitjacket. The fact this family is a fundamentalist Christian one is not the primary point. YOU are trying to make it so as a way to earn points for the non-religious side.
    BTW: I am agnostic so don’t think I”m trying to soft peddle the fundie element. What I, and nearly every other poster on here is telling you is that this is yet another abuse scandal being uncovered in the U.S. Take your damn blinders off or go away. Your reputation on this site is forever soiled.

  • Jim Reed

    I am not in any way saying blame the girls, and I haven’t said that in any of my posts, even the questionable ones. I am not saying they are responsible. I do blame the fundamentalist church attitude. I think it would be good to hear from the girls because they might be able to teach us some things about this. They are adults, and they can talk if they want. Look at the Cosby girls. They finally talked, and it proved good for them, and good for the nation.

  • Jim Reed

    I understand. You feel it doesn’t make any difference if a room full of sisters are all abused. I think it logically should make a difference, and give them more options to discuss it among themselves, and come forward as a group. I guess we will just disagree about that.

  • Jim Reed

    This is not your average situation. These girls are national TV start, and their show is the centerpiece of this whole drama. I think a lot of people want this issue to just go away, for the good of fundamentalist Christianity. I can understand that, and I think that also becomes a reason for some others to want this issue in this situation to not just go away. It is time for the nation to face just what fundamentalist Christianity is.

  • Louise

    Really, they would never do that? Words spoken by parents of known abusers everywhere.

  • Jim Reed

    The more strongly people want silence here, the more important it is to keep pressing the issue.

  • Jim Reed

    They are older. They are adults now, and can be talking for themselves.

  • Louise

    Pedophiles don’t simply “stop” when caught. This is a life-long behaviour.

  • Jim Reed

    You are making a mistake by trying to overlook what the girls might have to say. It is abuse, but the interesting aspect of this story would be to hear what they have to say, once they are in a mind and position to open up about it. And why not? Look at how it worked in the Cosby situation.

  • Jim Reed

    That is the kind of comment that RD should be removing.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: “Nowhere did I even HINT that his age made what the ADULTS in his life at that time did.”

    Then why does his age matter so much to you? Why did you tell me his age was the reason this incident wasn’t evidence of the Duggars’, and their defenders’, hypocrisy? I’m still trying to get why it meant so much to you that you had to point it out … when his age was not relevant to my original comment?

  • seashell

    The terrifying thing about this is that it will make not one bit of difference to American Christian fundamentalists.

    You’re right. Fundamentalists are not known for their ability to seek truth outside of biblical literalism and change their thinking accordingly. But I’m wondering if their outsized influence has started to wane over the rest of civil society.

    A conservative fundamentalist Evangelist at Patheos, Samuel James, recently wrote:

    [speaking of what social observers have noted] An American cultural shift away from civic religion, with its shared assumptions about the common good, towards a functional civic secularism, with assumptions that were marginal in American society even half a generation ago but are now sacrosanct and often culturally (and sometimes legally) enforced.

    For a long time in America, Christianity wasn’t just a religion, it was a blue chip stock in culture, politics, business and education. It’s true that ours was never a Christian nation, but then, you don’t have to own something in order to influence it. It’s precisely that influence that we see diminishing.

    The more a secular civil society grows, the more it can influence elections when those voters show up to vote. The main reason why fundamentalists have triumphed is because as a group they do show up to vote as part of their religious life, particularly in midterm elections. I don’t think we can change fundamentalists, but I’m encouraged that we can finally outnumber them enough to affect all the elections.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I have never said nor implied that “his age was the reason this incident wasn’t evidence of the Duggars’, and their defenders’, hypocrisy” as you claim. Stop putting words in my mouth. His age is only relevant inasmuch as the punishment he would have received HAD HIS PARENTS NOT ENGAGED IN AN AWFUL COVERUP would have been different than people (including you) seem to think. He would’ve (and should’ve) been incarcerated in a juvenile facility, likely until his 18th or 21st birthday, and would’ve received extensive, mandatory, and REAL psychological evaluation. As it stands, he had no real consequences for his actions, and his family has now been revealed for the dysfunctional mess they are.

  • Kevin Bailey

    People aren’t defending his actual molestation of his little sisters and family friend(s), but they ARE acting like it’s not as big of a deal as the news stories say it is. And they ARE defending Jim Bob & Michelle Duggar, even though they engaged in a blatant cover up, running out the clock on the statute of limitations so that when they had the pervert state trooper give Josh a “stern talk” it was too late for him to ever be charged for his crimes. Their behavior at that time was utterly deplorable.

    As for Lena Dunham, she is every bit as bad, particularly since she included stories of her molestation of her little sister in her best-selling memoir. She has, quite literally, profited off of her perverted behavior.

  • Kevin Bailey

    There are sexual deviants in every walk of life: Christians, Muslims, atheists, Jews, Hindus, you name it. The dysfunctional Duggars no more discredit all of Christianity than dysfunctional people in ANY walk of life discredit their subgroup.

  • Louise

    No you’re not. You’re just trying to package and spin your disgusting beliefs in a more positive light. You’re not even succeeding at that. Face it, you showed everyone your true colours. Now it’s time for you to go away.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    I repeat. The parade of cases tells a different story. My family belongs to a Reform Jewish congregation, the largest and most liberal denomination of Judaism in the US. There is no such record of corruption and abuse as you find in the Evangelical churches.

    Cults produce cultish behavior and the evangelical/pentacostal US churches are one gigantic cult.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Again, then, I find myself wondering why you’re so obsessed with pointing out Josh’s age, when you concede it was immaterial to what I’d been talking about? I don’t get it.

  • Carole Kocian

    So how do you like me now?

  • Kevin Bailey

    Not “obsessed” at all. My point regarding his age was one part of my contributions to this discussion. You simply seized on it as if I were somehow defending what the Duggars did in covering up Josh’s crimes, and you’ve been ranting in a nearly incoherent rage from your first post onward. His age is material in that it means his punishment had his parents not covered up for him would’ve been much different than if he were to commit the same criminal offenses now, as a 27 year old man.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I don’t care what you “repeat.” There are a “parade of cases” that happen in all walks of life. And if you think Judaism never has cases of child abuse and cover up, then you’re just woefully naive.

  • Jim Reed

    All I have done is think for myself, and show I don’t just rush off with whatever is the groupthink of the day.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    I said Reform Judaism, but you obviously don’t read very carefully. Among the Haredi, I am sure abuse is rampant, as it is in all cults.

    Fortunately, in the information age, the misbehavior of fundamentalist Christian cultists will always wind up being exposed. And there will come a point at which the parade of horribles is so long and outrageous that the country will finally have had enough of this miserable albatross that has held our politics in a death grip, since the days of the so-called “moral majority.”

  • Louise

    So people who believe that molesting children is wrong and that the victim is NEVER in any way responsible have succumbed to groupthink?

    Wow, you really are twisted.

  • Kevin Bailey

    You are, of course, free to demonize all of Christendom based on the behavior of a few fundamentalists. But your having done so is not so much different than what those fundamentalists do to homosexuals.

  • Jim Reed

    Please read what I have been saying. I never said molesting children was not wrong, and I never said the girls were guilty of anything. I am saying the fact that there was a room full of sisters involved here, and they all knew what was happening to each other, is the interesting aspect of this case that could be followed, and that is where there might be something to learn about the fundamentalist environment.. Beyond that, the groupthink is obvious. The more people attack, the more they act as a group, and don’t think it through.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    If you think fundamentalist Christians comprise all of Christendom, then you need some basic education.

  • Jim Reed

    There are a large number of fundamentalists. If there wasn’t, the Republican party would not be so interested in them as a voting block. You could see this as a battle for the soul of the nation.

  • Judith Maxfield

    Hey Daniel. Tell me more about this, how you see us, the people that are told by others we are of Satan. We don’t try to convert by a quick sell, so a lot of people don’t even know we exist. To others, we don’t have dogma and so it drives them crazy. What do you think?

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    I think that the Episcopalians have largely got Chistianity right. Retained the best qualities of ancient, liturgical religion and ditched virtually all of the atavistic elements. A real commitment to social justice, while retaining the best of the High Church aesthetics.

    If I was not from a Jewish family and was a Christian, I’d likely be an Episcopalian myself.

  • http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/ PsiCop

    Re: ” You simply seized on it as if I were somehow defending what the Duggars did in covering up Josh’s crimes, and you’ve been ranting in a nearly incoherent rage from your first post onward.”

    Actually it’s kind of funny that you seem to be the one who’s too enraged and incoherent to answer what ought to be a pair of very simple questions, which again are: How does Josh’s young age at the time of the incident (which you brought up several times) excuse the Duggars for their hypocrisy? And what bearing does his age have on the adults’ actions in this case?

  • Judith Maxfield

    I think there is an overall problem in what is coming out of this discussion:
    1. I meet (not too many) people who honestly believe they are true Christians and don’t know how to ask questions, for themselves, the indirect style of
    scripture or the seemingly contradictions involved. This is more dangerous
    those who know they are fakes.
    2. The Duggar kid was not punished says someone here on RD. How does the
    judicial system deals with these kids? By punishment usually, and what good does that do? Will he do it again? Probably. Our system is for the most part of vengeance. Locked up, but not safely restored to society.
    3. We need to learn the rules of society when we are children. But later, we need the questions “why” so as to better move into adulthood and not continue to act like children in adult bodies. The why hopefully makes you use critical thinking and knowng when compassion and mercy is more important for all our sakes. Hard rules alone and a lack of learning how to think alone wil not do it. This is what St. Paul is all about and difficult to grasp. We are to use to being stuck in “do the crime, pay the fine”. With this stuck in us, we will never be free of guilt.

  • Kevin Bailey

    At no point have I been other than reasoned and rational. From your first post to now you’ve been the exact opposite.

  • Kevin Bailey

    You seemed to imply that fundamentalists were somehow representative of all Christendom in your reply to the original post.

  • Louise

    There are a boatload of people posting on this story who would agree with me regarding what your posts are saying.
    You continue to view this story through the lens of “fundamentalism and its errors”. For whatever reason, either you are unable or unwilling to see that child molestation transcends religious cults, schools, military, etc. This is a story of abuse first. Stop using it as a platform for your dislike of religions.

  • Jim Reed

    This is a problem set up by fundamentalism. It is more than a case of abuse. It is an example of fundamentalism not being able to deal with a problem that they are causing. That sounds like a perfect issue for RD. These girls are now grown, and we think the law is letting the guy off the hook. You can complain about that and accomplish nothing, or you can look at the fundamentalist aspect of the problem and see there is much to learn here, and much for fundamentalism to lose if they try to just make it a coverup.

  • Judith Maxfield

    Interesting thought. I was attracted to TEC via Westminster Abbey, its liturgy, beauty, and gentle people. I still can remember the sermon.
    But now:
    I’m interested, no bothered by what happened in the early church and its separating away from its Jewish context. Jesus was fully a Jew and never left it. (my understanding) He was made into a Greek/European high Christology, high church divinity – literally. I’ve thought thats where the sin began, leading into the rest of the story that ended in the last holocaust (which wasn’t the first). I dearly hope to be part of changes in the Church willing to critique the exegis of scripture and theology. Otherwise, we may be doomed in a changing world that apparently thinks God died in WWII, and maybe rightly so. If you are interested in writng on this issue and posting it, I’m wondering where that might be helpful. For me, I’m not shocked at the thinking of Nietzsche and the God is dead group. I just read the Book, “Christ Actually” and James Carroll has in a way supported my questions about how we see Truth and meaning beyond physical so-called evidence. Its about the willingness to self- critique and do it better. Who are we for the future, for the sake of humanity?

  • fiona64

    In the Quiverful movement, girls are taught that they are under the authority of men … period. They are not to question anything that a male tells them … period. I think that covers how the girls will NOT be reacting. Jim-Bob told them to hush up, and they did.

  • fiona64

    So, you think that liberals excuse child molestation?

    Funny; from where I sit, that looks like what YOU are doing.

    It also looks shockingly like you think that, absent a very specific set of rules to which you adhere, you think people cannot behave themselves properly. Do you think so little of your *own* level of self control? Are you seriously saying that it is only your religious beliefs that make you behave like a decent human being?

    Wow.

  • fiona64

    Really? Are people going around trying to strip Christians of their right to marry (just to name one example)? I must have missed the memo.

  • fiona64

    Ah, yes. You can always tell a Randtard … but you can’t tell him much.

  • fiona64

    Duggar was 14 when this started, and his victims ranged from 4-11 years of age. Do you really want to keep excusing this?

  • fiona64

    How would you feel if it were your daughter being fondled while she slept? I’m just curious.

  • Jim Reed

    Yes, that must be how they are taught. But as his world crumbles, hopefully one or more of them will emerge from under the curse, and be able to think for herself. We have to stay positive here.

  • Commander McBragg

    You can always tell a Libtard.

  • Commander McBragg

    All I need is my creator to teach me how to be a decent person.

  • fiona64

    Well, I’m glad to hear that your parents taught you to be a decent person. That’s how most people learn.

  • fiona64

    Sweetie, the last thing I care to have in this world is the approval of a Randian child abuse apologist. Ergo, your opinion of me is 100 percent irrelevant.

  • fiona64

    I would hope so. There are women who have escaped from the movement who speak out regularly (I’ve been reading the above-mentioned Libby Anne for years). However, those women have to have the strength to walk away from their entire support system, with (almost always) no skills to survive in the real world.

    Anna Duggar has three kids, a fourth on the way … is 26 years old with no education or job skills. She’s as trapped as she can be. 🙁

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    That only demonstrates how widespread the problem of phony Christians actually is: So much so that actual PRACTICING Christians are in the minority.

    The Duggars are not true Christians. They just want you to think they are so you will watch their show and give the hate groups they shill for your money.

    But when you look at what the Bible says compared to what the Duggars have actually done, they would have better luck trying to pass themselves off as Shintos than true practicing Christians.

  • Jim Reed

    Anna is the one who is not at risk.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    Bullshit.

    That book “Christians” love to wave around while they scream at gay people? Not once does it refer to “Church” or “God’s house” as an actual physical location, much less instruct people to go to it.

    In fact, the Bible explicitly commands you NOT to go to Church.

    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
    ~Matthew 6:5-8

    That’s right. The Bible explicitly commands you NOT to go to a temple or a church, NOT to pray in public, and NOT to pray out loud. And yet people like the Duggars have willed themselves to think that deliberately violating those instructions is what Christianity is all about.

    Congratulations, Jim Reed. You’ve just illustrated my point about the hypocrisy of phony Christians even better than I did.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    No, you just don’t want “outsiders” involved in that discussion.

    Most likely because, when they do involve themselves and offer a completely unbiased assessment, your claim to being one of the true Christians goes down like one of your church’s altar boys.

    You’ve already demonstrated how thoroughly little you know about Christianity with your assessment above that Christianity is all about going to Church even though the Bible explicitly commands you not to do so. You sure you want to keep going down this path?

  • Jim Reed

    A quiverfull article on huffingtonpost quotes Josh as saying,

    “Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret.”

    The key to understanding this statement is he has no comment about 11 years ago, or 10 years ago, or even 13. I guess he is saying 12 years is a pointer into that period, and not a before or after boundary.

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t think the Bible matters here.

  • Jim Reed

    Christians tend to say that about other Christians. You can’t go by the Bible. If they believe in the name of Jesus Christ and go to church, then they are Christian.

  • Jim Reed

    Another huffingtonpost article says in July 2002 Josh admitted to his parents he had been touching one of the girls. That must mean yes on 13.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    No I didnt. The parade of losers I listed were all fundamentalist preachers. Its not like I included Hans Kung and Reinhold Niebuhr.

  • Kevin Bailey

    You’re deflecting now. Just as Fundamentalists like the Duggars demonize all gay people from the behavior of same sex preferential pedophiles, so you are demonizing all Christians based on the behavior of one small sect, the fundamentalists.

  • seashell

    Anna may or may not be at risk for sexual abuse, but she is also in a precarious position for protecting her daughters from sexual abuse, and herself and all the kids from every other kinds of abuse that takes place within patriarchal fundamentalist families for the reason Fiona mentioned.

    I think part of the reason you’re having a hard time coming to grips with the abuse, the abuser and the victims of this crime is because you don’t really understand child sexual abuse, the Quiverfull movement or patriarchal families.

  • Commander McBragg

    I’m not condoning child abuse and I’m not apologizing for anyone’s behavior. I personally don’t care about your opinion and your opinion is 100% irrelevant too!

  • Commander McBragg

    Funny…John Wayne Gacy said the same thing.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    Wow! I mean. . . Wow! You actually went there. You actually got so desperate that, in a discussion about what is or is not Christian, you just tried to dismiss the Bible.

    You do realize that the name Christianity is derived from the name “Christ,” whose entire life story and teachings are chronicled in that book you just told me to throw out, right?

    Are you positively, absolutely 100% sure you want to keep going down this path?

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    And as I explained to your worthless miserable stinkin’ ass once before already, that definition is 100% wrong.

    Believing in “the name of Jesus Christ” is worthless if everything you are doing IN the name of Jesus Christ is an affront to everything he stood for. And as I’ve already told you once already, Jesus explicitly told his followers NOT to go to a Church and pray in public.

    They may CLAIM that makes them Christian, but that book they claim to be getting all of their advice from is explicitly telling them it does not.

    By your logic, I likewise can say “I am a pelican”, therefore I must be one.

    I. . . I can’t believe I’m actually having this conversation. For the second time today, you have told me to dismiss the Bible in a discussion about what defines Christianity.

  • Jim Reed

    Christianity is a religion. Christians can decide who is a Christian, just like any other religion. They can also discuss who is a true Christian and who false. They decide any way they want, and you can’t just come in and set all the rules for them. You are not God.

  • Jim Reed

    Christians go to Christian churches. That’s how they know who they are. Now you say the Bible tells Christians not to go to Christian church. Can you see the contradiction?

  • Kelly Knight

    …:they are “pure” and “godly” because they police and condemn other people’s sexual lives.” No, but like every other Christian out there they feel it is their duty, and so it is, to stand up for what is right. The left in the country has spent so much time hating Christians that they don’t understand Christianity any longer. Of course any member of the Duggar family can, has, or will again commit some sin. That doesn’t make them evil, hypocritical or even misguided, it makes them human. What makes homosexual actions “sins” to the Christian world isn’t the sex, it’s the disobedience to God. Being obedient to God requires that we learn to subdue our will to His. Seeking to ask others to live by a higher standard, even one you can not, or did not, live yourself doesn’t make a hypocrite out of you, it just means that we are all on the same playing field. The atonement of Jesus Christ, (ya know, the core of Christian belief!) is about making mistakes, even evil ones, and repenting, changing and moving forward with life.

  • Jim Reed

    More from huffingtonpost,

    The Duggar’s homeschool program in the “Counseling Sexual Abuse” section “strongly suggests that victims are to blame for their own abuse. The guide instructs victims to ask themselves Why did God let it happen? and offers potential reasons like immodest dress, indecent exposure and being with evil friends.”

    Please don’t blame me. I am just the messenger.

  • Jim Reed

    Christianity seems to have confused church and God. When they say disobedience to God, they actually mean disobedience to the church. We are trying as a society to grow up beyond what the church has been saying.

  • ron_goodman

    If Child Protective services wherever it is that they live had any courage at all, those young children would have been removed to someplace safe. The sick cult they’re growing up in is much more of a threat than their older brother’s antics.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Wow. Way to miss every relevant point about what’s going on here.

    If you don’t get what’s wrong with a thief lecturing everyone about the sanctity of property, then you really are hopeless.

  • Kelly Knight

    I think your shifting this off the hot topic of sex is an excellent idea. I can make my point just as clearly with sealing, the hopefully people will not get feelings hurt as much. Of course a Christian, who has repented, and shows fruit of repentance (i.e. doesn’t commit that particular sin again) should be “lecturing everyone” and property rights. We should be supportive and inclusive of people who have committed a sin, stealing for example, and support their repentance. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about making changes to bring ourselves into line with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who then brings us to God. The thief, in order to fully understand the idea of property rights, and wrongs, should be teaching, so long as he teaches what God says and continues to conform his/her life to those teachings. I find it disheartening that as a society we tend to want people to stop teaching something is wrong, instead of changing ourselves and encouraging others to change into the beings God wants us to be.

  • Kelly Knight

    I am guessing that you think you should have the ability to know for yourself which things are of God and which are of church…. (FYI, that’s not a condemnation of you, it’s a position I hold myself! but…..how to do it….how to do it….hummm….)

  • Veritas

    I think you should not call anyone a fake Christian, perhaps imperfect Christian is more accurate, and there you place all Christians. The Bible does not tell the entire life story of Jesus and his teachings. The last line of John’s Gospel explains that he said and did many other things not written down here… John wrote the last of the Bibles books and knew what was circulating. What he described was so that you may believe.

    It is not for us to judge the hearts of others, that is for Christ, it is for us to love others in the way that Jesus taught us. We do not know the trials of all nor the evil they struggle against.

  • Jim Reed

    The Mormons smell blood in the water.

  • Jim Reed

    Common sense.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    A few points:

    1. Seems like the vice of hypocrisy cannot exist in your universe.
    2. There is a saying: “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.” In the case of Duggar-type Christians, it’s “Fool me forty seven times” about which I don’t know what to say. If you haven’t figured it out yet, then your middle name should be ‘gullible.’
    3. Christians have no monopoly on virtue. Jews — like myself — Hindus, Buddhists, all have moral codes and conceptions of right and wrong behavior. But the Christians are the only one’s shouting at everyone about it. (Or at least the evangelicall variety. I’ve met many Episcopalians and Greek Orthodox who are quiet.)
    4. If a used car salesmen rips me off on Tuesday, I’d be a fool to go back and shop from him on Wednesday. I’d be an even bigger fool if I believed him when he told me that he’d “repented.”

  • TimTripod

    It would seem, then, that the author believes that minors who mistreat other minors should be publicly disciplined, with the victims inevitably exposed and humiliated, as well.
    Please, Ms. Posner, show us a single quote where the Duggars lied about something. Show us an actual instance of hypocrisy. And show us a single person on earth who hasn’t made mistakes in their past that they’re ashamed of and which they exclude from their current standard of living.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    You don’t think that lecturing other people on sexual morality and politicking on sexual morality, all while your son/brother/husband is diddling his sisters is hypocritical?

  • Shawn Rogers

    No one does everything perfectly.  That is the reason Christ came to forgive sinners in which we ALL are.  No excuses for what happen but we all have to walk through our faults, answer to the law if we break it, repent before God for what offends him and trust in Jesus Christ to justify us before the Father on the day of Judgement.  NO ONE IS EXEMPT.  So to all those who think Christians are perfect or can ever be in this life please get a bible and read it.  We are sinners saved by Grace.

  • fiona64

    I’m sorry that you think so little of yourself that you would be unable to prevent yourself doing evil without your religion. ::shrug::

  • Kelly Knight

    (Point 1.) Of course “the vice of hypocrisy” can exist. I just don’t see it here. Your play book, as much of it as I can see, seems to say that Josh and family should have shut up, lived sexual lives of your liking, and quietly gone away after what they discovered Josh had been doing. They are not trying to sell you a used car (point 4), they are telling you what they believe God wants everyone to understand. That is where we can move from “gullible” (point 2)to understanding. Sexual sins, emphases on sin, is about God’s reality more than it is about sexuality. And if sexual sins were not so prevalent in today’s world no one would have to be having these discussions and no one would feel that they are being shouted at (point 3) but the fact remains that, despite what is often taught in religious belief systems, people error, and God expects us to talk to each other and teach what God’s standards are, not what are our own. Which brings me to a point of my own. As a Christian I come to understand that despite my own feelings it is my responsibility to act and teach according God’s will and not my own understanding. The wicked take the truth to be hard, as has been said by at least one prophet, (not calling you wicked, but as we both know, someone wicked is most likely reading this along with us!) and so, despite opposition, name calling, and loads of logical fallacies tossed at them, a Christian must continue to teach and preach and work.
    (And now, I must get to work or my husband, Kelly, will not have any lunch! Must figure out why all the lights in the kitchen went out at once!)

  • Kelly Knight

    Common sense, despite it’s name, tends to be localized and not spread around simply by referencing it. I’ll continue to rely upon God’s common sense. He seems to have a great way of teaching it!

  • fiona64

    You have no idea what apologetics are, do you? It’s not “apologizing,” it’s excusing and justifying. And that is just what you are doing with Josh Duggar.

  • fiona64

    Nope, I’m not deflecting. I’m asking you a straightforward question. Is anyone trying to strip Christians of their right to marry?

    The answer is simple: NO. So do not even try to equate what the Fundamentalist Christians are doing to gays to people speaking out against Josh Duggar’s abuse of his younger siblings.

    Just fucking stop it.

    No love, a follower of Jesus’ teachings who refuses to call herself Christian anymore

  • fiona64

    Well, I guess it depends on which risk you refer to. I concur that her children are at a different kind of risk than she is, make no mistake.

  • fiona64

    Are you familiar with the “No true Scotsman” logical fallacy?

    I suggest you look it up.

  • fiona64

    Romney is a Mormon.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    They are not just “telling us what they believe.” They are out campaigning to disenfranchise their LGBT neighbors. They are bad actors on the American scene and deserve public condemnation when they are revealed to be a bunch of hypocritical dirtbags.

    I am a husband, and I make my own lunch. I also do the grocery shopping and cooking.

  • Matthew Kilburn

    You can justly level criticism at Josh and his parents, but its quite a stretch to label their entire belief system a “purity lie”. The accusations against Josh don’t easily correspons to normal sexual behavior of any sort, marital or otherwise (unless you believe its more common for siblings to engage in such things…in which case, well, why are you singling him out?)

    I can pretty much guarantee to you that the duggar children will be far less likely to have sex before marriage than the general population, far more likely to get married, far more likely to stay married, and far more likely to have children than the general population. If that constitutes a lie…what constitutes truth?

    There is a huge difference between being a hypocrite and being a flawed person who strays from the straight and narrow. As far as I can tell, none of the Duggars are excusing Josh’s behavior. Hypocrisy requires a double standard. I don’t ses that here. I see a consistent standard that was fallen short of.

  • TimTripod

    If you’re unaware of it, no. If you take steps to make sure it stops when you find out about it, no.
    Tell me, do you think a person who lectures other people against shoplifting is a hypocrite if her teenager gets caught shoplifting? Is a person who used to do illegal drugs back when he was a stupid kid a hypocrite when he lives by a higher standard of morality as an adult, and encourages others to do the same? Is someone a hypocrite for promoting healthy eating if they used to be fat and unhealthy?

  • Jim Reed

    That teaching comes from the church.

  • Jim Reed

    I meant the risk that all the others in the Duggar family are facing.

  • Jim Reed

    We are just trying to figure out, how many years did this thing with the sisters go on?

  • Jim Reed

    The basic problem is religions competing against other religions using family size to see which religion can grow the biggest when the world needs to go the other way and figure out how to not overpopulate.

  • Jim Reed

    They have been recruiting evangelicals to overpopulate, and doing it for years. Now is a chance to get back at them.

  • TimTripod

    Well then, by all means, feel free to speculate, but that’s not something the article here is trying to figure out. The author starts out talking about the terrible things Josh did when he was a teenager, the imperfect response, and then spends the rest of the article listing pro-family things that they’ve done since.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    Lifting a verse out of the Bible to make your own point is just as wrong as anything anyone else does. It’s a misuse of the Word of God. The Bible also says, “Pray without ceasing.” If a Christian were to go by only what you’re saying and still practice the verse I’ve quoted, he’d never leave his prayer closet. The Bible, like all other things said, is to be taken in context. What is the context of the verses you’re hitting Christians over the head with?

  • Jim Reed

    This is our responsibility to work through. She won’t give us any more feedback here. She has kind of a short attention span. Sometimes she does about 3 different articles per day..

  • Leigh

    When people put themselves high up on a pedestal of purity and Godliness and morals, while looking down at others who do not hold with their purity, Godliness or morals, the fall from that high pedestal is going to hurt badly. And it has. I can’t say I feel sorry for them. Hypocrisy is one of the things Jesus condemned most. Maybe they should concentrate on HIS teachings instead of obsessing over Deuteronomy, Paul’s rants, and the lunatic ravings of John of Patmos.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    Wrong. Contrary to what Comparative Religion teaches, Christianity is NOT a religion. Religions keep people from God, because no one can pay for their own sin, which religion attempts to do. Christianity is a relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ, whom he sent to pay the price for our sin–the sins of us ALL. Those who accept that provision of God and trust Christ for their salvation, become sons of God by the new birth. That’s a relationship, not a religion. Those who don’t are not His sons, they’re merely His creation. Religion is man reaching out to try and please God. Salvation is God reaching out to man to bring him to Himself.
    What Christians strive to do after their new birth is to follow and serve the Christ who saved them, but we’re not perfect, except through Christ’s perfection. No true Christian claims to be perfect, only forgiven, because we’ve accepted the one provision God made for our sins. Where have you read that we claim to be perfect through our own merit?
    The only thing most true Christians try to preach is the way of salvation, as we’re told to do by the One who provided it, and the One who laid down His life to make it possible.
    In saying the above, I’m not condoning Josh Duggar, nor his parents. He sinned not only against God, but also against others, and he owes a debt to those he sinned against as well as to God. He should be willing to pay his debt to society, and his parents should see that. We’re forgiven for our sin when we confess it to God and to those we sin against, but we still owe a debt to the society we’ve wronged.

  • Jim Reed

    I think religion that becomes too dogmatic is vanity.

  • Matthew Kilburn

    So if Jesus didn’t specifically condemen it, anything goes?

  • Matthew Kilburn

    What overpopulation? The American birth rate is an embarrassing 1.86 – far below the replacement rate of 2.1, and yet still considerably better than most other developed countries. The only plqce in the world that can still truly be said to be in the babymaking business is Africa.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I’m not equating the two, and you know it. What I AM equating is people trying to demonize all of CHRISTIANITY from the behavior of a small group of perverts, to how fundamentalists try to demonize gay people as perverts because of the behavior of same sex pedophiles. Neither is acceptable.

    What Josh Duggar and his parents (in covering up for him until the statute of limitations expired) did was vile.

  • fiona64

    What I AM equating is people trying to demonize all of CHRISTIANITY

    Since exactly no one is doing that here, your outrage is best described as misplaced.

  • seashell

    …but its quite a stretch to label their entire belief system a “purity lie”.

    As Sarah Posner pointed out, the Duggars have marketed themselves as sexually pure and that pureness is policed while the kids are ‘courting’ before marriage. They also police other people’s sexual purity such as sex between consenting adults of the same or opposite sex and publicly stating that children using the same bathrooms as LGBT people are unsafe from child predators.

    …the duggar children will be far less likely to have sex before marriage than the general population, far more likely to get married, far more likely to stay married, and far more likely to have children than the general population.

    Physically, all the above may be true. But is everyone in the marriage emotionally healthy, raising kids that are able to withstand the realities of the world and some its dangers and goodness? In a patriarchal fundamentalist system, the tendency is to cover up the bad and pretend it’s all good, instead of dealing with the bad in an appropriate way. Like when a son commits a crime against his little sisters and a visitor. How can that be healthy?

  • seashell

    Are you and Kelly Knight the same person? Click on either avatar and only Kelly Knight comes up.

  • tpel_91

    Exactly how are those girls, in your world view, going to be expected to protect themselves? Are they supposed to sleep with a weapon under their pillow? So when they pull that weapon on the brother about to molest them, then what? Those parents – who can’t be bothered to protect the daughters themselves – can punish them for hitting the would-be attacker??

  • Kevin Bailey

    It’s been implied multiple times that Christians have a propensity to be Duggar-like somehow.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    One question. Who told you that any of the above believe Republicans can do no wrong? Maybe you should ask them before speaking on their behalf. Many of us simply vote for the lesser of two evils, if there is one.

  • Jim Reed

    No weapons. We don’t want to escalate this any more. They should start by talking to each other, and they might come up with some ideas. They have strength in numbers. When it happens, they could all jump up screaming, “Mom, Josh is doing it again”. I bet that would stop it, at least as long as they were all together. Beyond that, perhaps they could meet other girls in this situation on the internet and trade ideas.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    The fact they’re all conservatives doesn’t make them alike, any more than all liberals or Democrats are alike. Get real.

  • Jim Reed

    Considering most jobs in the US seem to be minimum wage in the fast food industry, a lower population for a while would probably help out. We also still have people who want to come to America, so we are in no danger from that rate.

  • Judith Maxfield

    OK, but why does this pertain to how I responded to Daniel? If this is an evangelical message, it does make sense to those who like dogma. There really is more to Christianity than that. If you’r so interested, try studying St. Paul again and reflecting on his meaning. Or maybe Romans will help. BTW: Jesus as I remember did not teach rules but love and justice through experience of showing compassion to people whom he loved, the poor, and outcast. Its the church who emphasied rules. Now thats a different story and what I am concerned with.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    I agree that it’s horrible. But what is the age of majority? Do you know? Again, you don’t lock up a minor for an adult’s crime. Yes, he should still pay his debt to the society he wronged, and to the individuals as well, and his parents shouldn’t have hidden the crime, nor should they have been so cavalier about it. He should at least be doing community service and getting real counseling, since there were multiple incidents, both outside and inside his own family. And the parents certainly shouldn’t be held up on nationwide or worldwide TV as the epitome of perfection, any more than any other Christian, just because they have lots of kids. I’ve always thought that was just insane.

  • Leigh

    If these people are Christians, you would think they’d pay more attention to Jesus Christ’s teachings, wouldn’t you think? And I am pretty sure Jesus would condemn child molestation. Let me see. Yep, there it is. He said: “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
    I think Joshie is in trouble.

  • MidclassTaxpayr

    Yes, it is, and this type of thing is rampant, both in the Christian community as well as among non-Christians. The only difference is, this gives non-Christians opportunity to judge and gossip about those they dislike. How often do we hear about those in the non-Christian sector who do the same things, or see them ridiculed as we’re now seeing done against the Duggars? Josh owes a debt to those against whom he committed the crimes, and to society as a whole. He should be doing something to make up for it, other than confessing it to God, his parents, his church, and his victims, and the parents need to be doing something too, as well as receiving real counseling. Most of all, they probably need to stop having children when they don’t know what’s going on among those they already have.

  • Jim Reed

    I know they are not all alike, but the votes are still there. They are in a competition to see how they can best differentiate, and outcompete the others for that voting block.

  • tpel_91

    Right. So you are telling them that they should rely on the parents to protect them at the same time telling them that they can’t rely on their parents to protect them. That is really helpful of you. Oh, and pre-teens and younger don’t get to meet up on the Internet. Not without parental supervision. Try again.

  • Matthew Kilburn

    You betray an ignorance of the facts. Both the fact that a declining population leads to further economic pain (see Japan, Ukraine, Italy)…aand the fact that the birth rates of countries that serve as the sources of US immigration are falling even faster than our own.

    We need far more people to have far more children.

  • Jim Reed

    Well California is filling up, and previously open stretches between SF and LA are now full of cities, and they are running out of water. At least they would benefit from a smaller population.

  • Jim Reed

    No. I am saying they need to rely on each other, or at least do what they can to try to help each other, and for sure communicate with each other. I don’t know all the answers, but that is a start, and should be the minimum bottom line when they can’t depend on the adults; parents or church leaders.

  • http://westernhero.blogspot.com/ Silverfiddle

    Aside from what Jim Reed said…

    Read the Gospels. Jesus went to Synagogue.

    Read Acts, the apostles and early Christians met on the first day of the week and celebrated the eucharist.

  • Martha Murphy

    The Duggar’s views against homosexuality aside, I think they behaved responsibly in this case. The boy was 14! Inviting the authorities into the situation would have done harm to all involved. Their responsibility was not to punish, but to see that the abuse did not happen again.

  • Jim Reed

    I thought that verse was supposed to be about causing children to question the faith. “Believe what we say, and if you doubt make sure you don’t pass those doubts on to kids or you are going to hell”. It is just the church trying to consolidate power through circular reasoning.

  • Jim Reed

    And then go on national television to make their family the example for Christians to watch and emulate. Some people think they are good examples, and others think they are trash, so as long as they are national symbols we will continue to discuss it and probably argue over it.

  • fiona64

    Well, you may be reading it far differently than I am. However, the Duggars want us all to believe that they are the most Christian-y Christians Who Ever Christianed, so …

  • Kevin Bailey

    Islamic fundamentalists want us to believe that they are the most Muslim-y Muslims that ever Muslimed as well. That doesn’t make either group right.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Can some one explain what a fundamentalist christian is. Is that some one who is born again and patterns their life after Christ as CHRIST works himself in them and works sin out of them daily? The above is the standard christian life. It is a sinner who has been saved by the Perfect life death and resurection of Jesus Christ Who did for us what e can Not.

  • fiona64

    In that you are 100 percent correct.

  • Jim Reed

    A fundamentalist Christian believes in heaven and hell, and the trinity and the Bible is the perfect word of God, and the name of Jesus is the path to salvation. These beliefs usually all go together, and often shut out certain scientific beliefs like evolution.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Christians will be judged just like everyone else before Christ but we are saved from hell and it’s punishment because we accept the gift of his work in place of ours. It is his work life death and resurection that is applied to us at the judgement so that we ate hid in his rightiousness. All others will have to stand in their own rightiousness. Not a good look because no human being is perfect and The Hebrew God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob will accept nothing less then perfection.

  • Shawn Rogers

    That’s just basic Christianity accept for the macro evolution which the bible does not teach. Gods word is perfect but interpertations can loose meaning and context sometime.

  • haithabu

    I respect what the Duggars are doing. I respect the way Josh’s parents and the elders of their church handled the situation when he was young. Christian values are aspirational values. The fact that every Christian falls short at some point doesn’t make them less valid. The fact that a 14 year old boy began to go down the wrong path before being stopped and corrected doesn’t invalidate everything he does right for the rest of his life.

    If some on this thread wish to stamp out legalism and judgmentalism, I suggest that they begin using a mirror to aid their search.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Jesus was Jewish which means he lived under the law of Moses and was quote content with that. What he many times was found doing when debating with the Jewish leaders was correcting them for their misinterpretation or additions to the law. We will all be judged according to Gods law. Christians will be hid under the perfection of Christ and his rightiousness and all others will have to stand in their own rightiousness. And no son or daughter will be found rightious in Gods eyes. For all have sinned

  • Leigh

    Well if you’re a child in a household full of supposed “godly” and “moral” people, and some big oaf starts manhandling your private parts while you’re trying to sleep, I think that would cause that child to “question the faith” bigtime!

  • Shawn Rogers

    Legal (according to the state) they can be brought up on charges because it was not reported. IT can be looked at as child abuse.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Jesus did not have to speak on certin things because it was clear in the Jewish law. He only clarified things that were asked and that were big problems like divorce, racism , and how unrightious humanity to be justified before a perfect God. GODS TAKE ON homosexuality AND FORNICATION was clearly KNOWN.

  • Jim Reed

    Evolution wasn’t understood, or even known, when the Bible was written.

  • Jim Reed

    Unless you have the governor of that state on your side.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Yes, I do. Especially given that I have no reason whatsoever to believe that he has stopped. It’s not as if I would take the dirtbag’s word for it. That would make me even a bigger fool than his fans.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    Your argument is as dishonest as your choice in Disqus username.

    I never said the Bible should be taken literally, to the letter, word for word, and you choosing to lecture me as if I had is a worse dishonesty than the kind you are pretending to be lecturing.

    I instead pointed out that everything Jim Bob Duggar and Jim Reed claim that Christianity is all about, the Bible clearly states is not.

    Your “all or nothing” stance on the Bible is also blatantly dishonest. But even if I did buy into that crap and sort myself into the “nothing” category, it’s not hypocrisy to use it to point out that people on the “all” side are actually ignoring 99% of what it actually says.

    It IS hypocrisy, however, to call someone childish after flinging that kind of crap at him. If you can’t act like an adult and at address your ideological opponents as they are instead of pretending they said or did something you are more comfortable lecturing, GTFO.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    I did. And while there are plenty of references to Jesus etc. actually setting foot inside a temple, I must have missed the part where they all gathered round’ and had a public “Our Father” circle jerk.

    I have no problem with churches — they serve their purposes, more positive than negative. But going to church is an indulgence, not a requirement, and so-called “Christians” should stop pretending that going to a church and name-dropping Jesus a few times gives them permission to outright ignore everything else the Bible has to say.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Correct but it would not have mattered becase as Moses stated and St John “all things were made by God through his word”. It was He who created all things and the method by which he used is secondary.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Yes that may be true. That’s how the homosexual agenda has been shoved all throughout america riding the stallion of media.

  • Jim Reed

    We have to conclude there was no actual Moses since archaeology shows the nation of Israel did not spend 40 years in the desert, and if the Exodus was not real, then neither was Moses. He is a Bible story.

  • Jim Reed

    Society is evolving. Everyone will have to get used to it.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Well since we know there was a Jesus, Paul and David and they all spoke of Moses as a historical figure as they did Adam I’ll go with their take on history. We just figured out Moses was right about the universe being created and Job was right about it being and expandING universe. We are still catching up.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Yes society is evolving like Rome did and we see how that turned out. It was a whole lot of grown men chasing little boys instead of government affairs. Not a good look. but many of us will not go into the night quietly. We will stand for what God says is right and ask for his help to live it out dispite the sinfull direction the world is continually progressing in. But it is no supprise because we are doing exactly what the bible says… being sinners and followING our own rightiousness.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Not to mention they said there was no historical evedence for Pilate untill they found the Pilate stone. it is ancient history and hard to find evedence but the more they find the more the bible is proven to be pritty reliable historicaly.

  • TimTripod

    I can see from your understanding of hypocrisy (“If you’ve ever committed a particular transgression, you’re a hypocrite if you ever speak against it or claim to be living differently now”) that you are operating in a sphere distinct from reality. I can also see from your automatic assumption that he has not changed (without any grounds whatsoever for believing that he hasn’t) that you are approaching this issue from the perspective of a cynic, not the perspective of someone who actually would like to know the truth of the matter. Given these two observations, I’ll go ahead and excuse myself. Have a good day.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Your feigned innocence is phony and everyone knows it. Duggar and the movement he belongs to — fundamentalist Christianity — is so full of bad actors and has such a history of corruption and abuse that there is absolutely no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. Indeed, there is every reason not to.

    Bakker, Swaggart, Hinn, Haggard, Duggar….will the “movement” never learn? Ever?

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Working to disenfranchise LGBT citizens is not “pro family.” It’s hateful.

  • Shawn Rogers

    To add it was common practice for a new Pharoah to erase the history of previous ones (ps.. what a dumb thing to do) so it’s not strange we are having a hard time finding evedence. But the fact that they had the ark of the covenant with some of Moses artifacts in it until the BabalonIan destruction of the temple and those in Jesus day saw moses and his writtings as historical and relitive gives us some good evedence he was a historical individual.

  • Jim Reed

    Paul is just reading the scdriptures, same as anyone else. There was no Jesus, and the timing is off for David, even if he did exist. How could you know what David said if what you are reading was written long after his lifetime? Biblical studies are basically circular reasoning. It is also vanity when Bible believers try to take credit for the Big Bang ideas. It is all spinning in circles.

  • Jim Reed

    Christian vanity has no decency.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Well the train stopped when you said there was no Jesus because their is no rational HISTORIAN or biblical scholor who will get in that sinking ship with you. Even the dudes who don’t belive in him we say their is a boat load of evidence for his historical place. Next … Paul read belive and died for his belief in the scriptures and moses writtings was a large part of what Jews have always belived and taught. the bible Read in it’s proper Jewish context, which is what Paul and Jesus and all other Jewish scribes and Pharisea taught from, was seen and used as a historical book and has proven itself to be very reliable as such. That’s just fact. Lastly .. how old is the bible I mean really? It’s first pages say God created the heavens and the earth and for how long did scientist say the universe was eternal. Funny how they understood those verses and harper

  • Shawn Rogers

    Come on we have 1st century writting of Jewish historians about Jesus. Joseph us and the like.

  • Shawn Rogers

    But it will prosper a nation solidify it with rightious standards and moral foundations create science produce great thinkers philosophers take care of the poor sick orphans and widowed give you the power to love your nehbohor and GET YOU A GET OUT OF HELLS BUS FREE CARD. I’LL TAKE IT.

  • Jim Reed

    The Josephus passage is fake. It says:

    “At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up unitl this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.”

    Every bit of this is exactly what a fourth century Christian apologist would have written, and exactly what Josephus, a first century Jewish historian would not have written. Combine that with the fact that no other Christian referred to this until the fourth century (and later), and it is fake. Before that time, even Christian apologists who mentioned Josephus said nothing about this and if the passage was actually in Josephus at that time they would have used it.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Agian I say you are hanging in the minority of the frenge schoars. Some have said their are a few passages that may have been doctored but the majority of his writtings are solid as is Paul who lived during Jesus ministry and all those of the first century who could have easely squashed the deciples teaching if it was false. Paul and the deciples often said in their teacings you know these things to be true for they were not done in the dark.

  • Matthew Kilburn

    Josh Duggar preached sexual morality. Apparently, as a teenage boy, he didn’t live up to such a standard. Perhaps accusations of hypocrisy are fair (or perhaps not, as I mentioned earlier: what you have here is not so much a double standard as one man’s failure to live up to his own standard).

    But the suggestion that Josh Duggar is now in no place to lecture people on other forms of sexual misconduct and deviency would be far easier to take serious…except that if he were a celibate Priest, I would bet a significant sum of money would be complaining about someone who didn’t have sex lecturing other people on the subject, and even if he didn’t have a prior hustory of misconduct, you would probably be disputing his right to hold others to the same standard he held himself to.

    In the liberal mind, the only immorality is to tell other people there are absolute rights and wrongs.

  • Jim Reed

    Most of his writings are solid, but the Jesus passage was obviously added in later centuries by Christians. The crazy thing is Christians are still commonly using this quote today, even though the more intellectual ones know it is fake. I think it is because even though they know it is fake, it is still the best evidence they have, so they still use it.

    The gospels were not even written until the last third of the first century, so there wasn’t really any threat of them being squashed, especially since nobody was there in the first place to know any different.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Sorry we have Pauls letters 1st century written while those who experienced it were still alive and roman history to colaberate the accounts.

  • Judith Maxfield

    Get a Bible? Which one for God’s sake.? Do you know the differance between the many out there? I’m sorry, but I am sick to death over what people have done with that book!!! Reading it is not enough. So you judge humanity by a book? I have not only read the complete bible but I also also am a trained lay theologian. You can quote all you want the doctrine but that has nothing to do with Christine praxis, for you – Christine experience. Words are just words with a period. What comes after that? What in the Hell does it mean in real life???? I’ve tried to speak gently on RD but this time I’m tired of the reactive nonsense here. A book is a book is a book, go ahead and believe and quote. It means nothing by itself except selfie justification. Amen. The world is waiting for the meaning.

  • Jim Reed

    Paul’s letters don’t talk about the Jesus of the gospels, but only about the mystical Jesus he and Christians of the time were finding in old testament scriptures.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Yes I agree with you that the the Bible has been interpreted many time to try and get better interpertation in read languages and unfortuantly some to currupt it.
    It can be confusing but thank God he’s not left us alone when you become a Christian God gives you His Spirit to live within you the Holy Spirit it is he who teaches all things and brings back to rememberance whatsoever Jesus taught and is teaching. He leads us and guides us when we follow and listen to Him. As a Christian we’re not alone we have a teacher and comforter. With out the HolySpirit you are correct … it is just a book of Hard rules and laws no one can ever live by. with Christ in your life it is a guide a light able to instruct you in rightiousness and help you to know the God who inspired it.. love in Christ.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Pauls letters speak of the man who lived died and was rose agian. As Paul said if Jesus Christ was not raised from the dead then we are yet in our sins and men to be most pittied. Paul hung out with those who walked with him and said his life was changed by Meeting the risen Christ. Paul states to his listeners “these things were not done in a corner you know these things to be true”

  • http://westernhero.blogspot.com/ Silverfiddle

    I don’t recall the Bible mentioning any circle jerks, but Acts does describe early ‘church’ worship, as does the Didache.

    I agree with you that just going to Church and paying some lip service doesn’t get the job done. Not by a long shot.

  • Jim Reed

    Apostles were church leaders. It is doubted that the apostles filled in Paul when they met in Jerusalem because Paul doesn’t say that, in fact the opposite, he says he got his gospel from no man, and he was not overly impressed with the Christian leaders in Jerusalem. He didn’t attach any special significance to them. It is the gospel stories written later that were trying to change things. Paul’s Jesus was the heavenly creation of old testament scriptures and his visions. The gospel stories weren’t there when Paul wrote, and if they were his letters would have been very different. Later church interpretations of this history are reasoning in a circle.

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    If there is a coherent thought here, it’s not apparent. Care to reformulate?

    Oh, and it looks like his predations continued on until he was at least 17. People that age fought in WWII. Hardly a “boy.”

  • http://daniel-kaufman-rpur.squarespace.com/ Daniel A. Kaufman

    Sexually assaulting your sisters for year after year is a “flawed person who strays from the straight and narrow”?

    Your morality has a really low bar.

  • pennyroyal

    There are many Christians who do not accept the doctrine of atonement. Your statement is about your personal belief. Live your life according to your belief but don’t expect others to do so.

    The teachings on our (supposed) inherent sinfulness and our not deserving salvation, all of that makes no sense to growing numbers of young people, who move forward in life with a humanist sense of ethics. No mumbo-jumbo, no taking as truth something they are taught or told to believe. Christianity is but one path and conservative Christianity is a menace in the USA in this country.

    Still, as a Humanist and a former interfaith chaplain, I loved the Christian patients and families it was my privilege. They have humility. They are the salt of the earth and would never push their faith on others.
    Josh had hubris and arrogance. He thought he could do whatever he wanted as a white, male, knowing he would someday be head of a household. Heaven knows what these molesters do with their family when they have young children. One in 4 girls is molested or raped. One in 5-6 boys. That’s a lot of god-ordained suffering (by the Duggar view of Christianity).

  • pennyroyal

    I am not Christian, I am a secular humanist. I don’t ‘gossip’. But I do shake my head that there is so much sexual abuse in churches. Even my local church is full of it. Secular people abuse, too, of course. We may use different language but I agree with the fact that we are all capable of doing wrong. And yes, the Duggars need to stop having children. And the fools who fund them and promote a pro-natal agenda are horrible. There are 7.3 people in the world and our planet is being destroyed. People should stop being ‘fruitful and multiply’ and have at most two, even in the USA. And adopt if they want to raise more. That would be the ethical thing to do.

  • Shawn Rogers

    I’m not sure where you got that from but the book of Acts describes Pauls and The Apostles encounters also Galatians 1. Yes the Gospels were being written as Paul traveled preaching. And they coincide with what he taught.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Paul wrote about the man who walked with the deciples, did miricals died on a cross for our sins was risen had the name Jesus and belived he was the Christ. This is the book of Romans.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Now we could keep doing this but for what? If you have chosen not to follow Christ that’s between you and Him. I’m just saying do not go off thinking we’ll theirs not enough evidence it’s enough for other non belivers who study history. They just are not afraid to say I don’t want to belive. Make a choice honestly and do you. Like I said that’s between you and him.

  • Jim Reed

    It is from the Bible, Paul’s writings. The gospels and Acts were written later, and have set the story that people believe now. That is now what was written at the time, by Paul.

  • Jim Reed

    Paul wrote about a magical savior, not about gospel Jesus walking around Jerusalem. It was Christianity in Paul’s time.

  • Jim Reed

    In this case, Bart Ehrman made money selling to Christians who wanted things put a certain way. He was also crushed on the internet because he doesn’t have evidence for what he is saying, and he is ignoring the actual evidence.

    To me the important thing is to not just believe what the church tells you to believe. Truth is more important than that.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Well if that’s what you want to belive what can I say but you are on the wrong side of the majority of history and new testement scholors. But you have free will and are able to make your own conclusions. But study has landed me on a different path. What turns one to Christ turns others away. That’s why there are two eternal places As I belive And Christ tought

  • Jim Reed

    “at least 17”

    Yes, today’s huffingtonpost article about the trooper seems to confirm every rumor, potential rumor, or speculation about this case.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Right that is why the Holy Spirit is so importiant. He will lead the beliver in all truth. So I don’t have to depend on the church or teachers wholely. The teacher lives in me and teaches the beliver what we need to know concerning salvation and the God we serve. Now back to Paul. What people and what message was he killing people for befor his conversion? It seems strange the sanhedren and priest would go through all that trouble for nothing as you say. And I guess you belive the roman historian Tacitus was all wrong also even though he confirms what the Gospels teach. And the temple still stands because it was not destroyed in your version of history even though Christ said it would happen and not one stone would be left unturned. Wow the romans turn over all the stones to scrape the melted Gold of of them. You can belive what you want and go where you think the evedence leads you . UT I am assured that my place is with Christ and I will trust Him because he has shown himself to be trust worthy in my life. I will trust him with the life to come also. It is a better bet then shoTy guesses from people who don’t want to belive no matter how much circumstantial evedence or historical collaborative proof is offered. Just like the Astronomers physicist biologist that all see blatently creation and the work of Gods hand they say ” it does appear as if it was all created but I still can not belive That. They have created cells in a lab with our top scientist and have concluded it would take a mind and a plan to make this work yet many still say nah … there’s no god. we would rather belive something popped out of nothing that’s more rational for us……or we’ll just ignore how the universe begain. ConciousNess from nonconciousness please. The probibility that there would be anything close to life in this Universe is enormous. But it all just fell into neat place. You have your faith and I have mine.

  • TimTripod

    Definitely not just a “fundamentalist Christianity” thing. The Roman Catholic church had their sex abuse scandal not long ago, and they’re not fundamentalist. Lena Dunham (sexual abuser of her younger sister) isn’t a fundamentalist. Bill Clinton’s scandal certainly wasn’t a fundamentalist Christian event. Anthony Weiner definitely wasn’t a
    fundamentalist Christian. Washington and Hollywood are chock full of people doing immoral things. The fact is, people in all walks of life do stupid, bad things, and when you single out fundamentalist Christians it reveals more about you and your motivations than it does about the real world.

    Yeah, I can see why you put Duggar in that list there, since he was a televangelist/preacher when he did that terrible thing. No, wait, that’s not right. I guess you put him there because he’s a married guy who cheated on his wife — no, that’s not right, either. I guess it’s because he was an adult who was telling people to live one way while he was living another way? No, that’s not it. Okay, perhaps it’s because Duggar had sex with someone he wasn’t supposed to – no, he was touching them inappropriately, so that’s not true, either.

    I give up – why are you trying to lump a dumb, 14-year-old, smack-in-the-middle-of-puberty kid in with adult, married, cheating, preachers?

  • Jim Reed

    Tacitus talks of the fire in Rome in 64 CE that Nero blamed on Christians. He says a man named “Christ” was executed by Pilate and now these people were Christians. Tacitus’ account was written in the second century, and was going by what he heard, not official Roman records. There is a problem with Tacitus’ account of Nero and the fire and Christian persecution. Early Christians were really into myrtardom, but the Tacitus account is not used by anyone else until the fourth century. There is no record until then of Christians being blamed for the fire, or of the tremendous persecution by Nero. It seems likely that stuff was added to Tacitus in the fourth century as Christians were adjusting history. The wording of Christ instead of Jesus would be the way people spoke of it by the fourth century.

  • TimTripod

    And I hold that robbing children of their mother or father is hateful, so I guess we’re at an impasse.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Was talking about the destruction of the second temple in 70 ad by the romans. Not the fire in rome. You explanation away all the accounts but the bottom line is it is your spin on history and the many accounts by those around the time archiology and plain common sense explaining why the men who followed Jesus were 180 degree different after the day of penticost. Why jewish men came to follow christ beliving he was risen in the flesh, why a man Saul who hated christians and was a murderer became one and pend most of the doctorine based on old testement teaching. And and why many who don’t have a bible today are experienc muslimsare having visions of the risen Christ and giving their lives to him knowing it will be the loss of family and their life. went spread the massage they did were willing to loose their life to spread it. You have a right to belive what you choose. Christ work will continue until his return. No argument Will convict you only the HolySpirit can do that.

  • Jim Reed

    Acts is pure fiction written in the style of fiction of that day. The church put a lot of effort into trying to work this stuff out and create a religion, and they accomplished it. The temple was destroyed. Religions became as was best described in Monte Python. The church worked their magic. And now people believe, with all their hearts. I guess it is hard for us to understand in a logical sense, so we have our way of looking at it, and you have yours.

  • Shawn Rogers

    What you.are writing is fiction. they have found more then enough archiology to colaberate the historisity of the book of Acts. Sorry dude this is more of you fringe history. You are on the outscirts of historians biblical scholors and all the writtings that agree with LUKE’S accounts. Just say you don’t want to belive and stop tring to convince your self. Take the.pressure off and accept that you don’t want to belive.

  • http://www.examiner.com/political-rebuttal-in-national/michael-ross Michael Ross

    Now there’s a tantrum if there ever was one.

    No, I am not God. I know that, and I never made any claim otherwise. I’m just pointing out the stark difference between what you claim to be doing and what you are actually doing.

    Of course, the assertion that “you are not God” and have no right to define people just as easily applies to you, seeing as you seem to now be hellbent on excluding me from the discussion on the grounds that I am not Christian.

    Which is a load of bull. I do consider myself Christian. Just not one of the preachy condemning hypocritical variety like you and the Duggars.

    And this, Jim Reed, is where your childish tantrum clumsily disguised as an argument falls apart: You are trying to assert that, as a Christian, you have the right to decide who is and is not Christian. I am also Christian, but apparently, I don’t have the same right you’ve given yourself because you’ve decided that I am not Christian.

    I know I’m not God, but I’m not the one acting like he thinks he is.

    I’ve actually read the Bible, which you’ve already told me multiple times to throw out. So by what right do you have to declare yourself the true Christian and myself the phony one?

  • Jim Reed

    I am not saying you are a phony Christian. I accept you as a true Christian. I am just saying Christianity is a religion, and Christians can decide who Christians are. You are not God, so you can’t override that. Everybody needs to just settle down here a bit.

  • Kelly Knight

    Hummm…..so let me restate this so that I get this idea across. The term Christian comes from the idea that people had accepted Jesus (of Nazareth) as the Savior, Messiah, or Christ. It is the position Jesus filled while here on earth. It is a title He holds because of the cross and the time He spent in prayer in the garden. Those people who do not accept the atonement wrought by Jesus by definition are rejecting the position He filled when dying on the cross, hence they are not accepting of the Christ. It makes sense that they also reject the idea of sin, repentance, and atonement and therefore have no need of a Christ, Savior, Messiah. By so doing they are therefore not Christian. I am not name calling, I am however pointing out that there has been a lot of misunderstanding between people, and so need to clarify. Just changing the meaning of the term Christian doesn’t make sense, and it appears to give you reason to demean, degrade and disregard those who do accept Christ. FYI, I am personally aware of the molestation stats to which you refer. D (not Kelly, poor guy, my husband, needs to log out of his FB account more!)

  • fiona64

    I’m sorry; we are not talking about “morality” in the case of Josh Duggar. We are talking about the irrefutable fact that he COMMITTED A CRIME.

    Why are you excusing him?

  • fiona64

    We are not talking about “sin” in the case of Josh Duggar. We are talking about the fact the he committed a CRIME. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

    Oh … I suggest you crack a friggin’ history book some time. You clearly have no idea why Rome fell. Hint: conquest is expensive.

  • Jim Reed

    The statute of limitations is past.

  • fiona64

    I respect what the Duggars are doing.

    So, you respect that they knew their son was committing criminal acts and conveniently hushed it up until the statute of limitations ran out? Really?

  • fiona64

    Saul of Tarsus was a contemporary of Rabbi Yeshua, but the two never met. Paul is making stuff up to fit his own agenda; much of the Pauline doctrine is 100 percent antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.

  • fiona64

    Yes, it was ever-so-responsible to brush their son’s *crime* under the rug until after the statute of limitations ran out, teach their daughters that they were to blame for their brother’s “sin” (here is what they teach about sexual abuse: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family.pdf), and going around preaching that *transfolk* were child molestors while harboring one in their own home.

    Yep. That was responsible, all right. /sarc

  • fiona64

    Homosexuality was not understood then as it is now. I do not feel like going into a lengthy exegesis for an ignoramus, so I hope that you will forgive me if I shorten it to this: your “understanding” is incorrect.

  • fiona64

    We need far more people to have far more children.

    By which you mean “far more white people.” You aren’t fooling anyone.

  • fiona64

    Repeatedly sexually abusing one’s sisters is not a “mistake.” Taking the wrong exit on the turnpike is making a mistake.

    Sexually abusing one’s sisters is a CRIME. One of his victims was four years old. Why are you trying to excuse this?

  • fiona64

    Yep. I linked to it above.

  • fiona64

    Sexual abuse is not a “sin,” it is A CRIME.

    Why are you people so unable to comprehend that?

  • Shawn Rogers

    You are correct on two points yes he committed a crime (and a sin aginst God) yes Rome fell to conquest (and was know for their sinfull lustfull homosexual practices . Which from my openions had concequences on the judgement in many other areas of State affairs. What we do in our private life does affect our public actions and decisions. But to be clear I know that homosexuality was not (from a secular point of view) why Roam fell. From a moral and spiritual side it place a huge role in its demise.

  • fiona64

    Stop excusing CRIMES by calling them “sin.”

  • Shawn Rogers

    yes they met on the road to Damasus. Now you don’t have to belive that. I met Jesus to and I can say yes I’m not the same person I was.

  • fiona64

    STOP EXCUSING JOSH DUGGAR’S CRIMES.

  • Shawn Rogers

    I hear you let’s ot go there because it’s a silly argument. Laviticus is pritty clear as to what it is and it is the same today thou shalt not go into a man or animal as a women it is an abomination. To add to that pagen temple prostitution was forbidden front a Jewish perspective and that involved animal male on male female with female and male with female. To be clearer fornication (sex out side of marrage ) is sin so that sums it up. And yes Jesus said marrage is for malet and female only. But what people do is what they do that’s between then and God.

  • fiona64

    Yep, thanks to Jim-Bob …

  • Shawn Rogers

    But what he said was not wrong even if he could not do it and that is the christian message. There is none rightious which is why We all need Christ blood for an atonement. Yep he broke the law of the land. …. that needs to be handled and Gods law. Christ took care of that if he repented.

  • fiona64

    Okay, little man. You are about to get your feelings hurt.

    Thing the first: the word used in scripture, “toevah,” does NOT mean abomination. Abomination is a 15th C. Latinate word that was NOT in use at the time Leviticus was written. The word “toevah” means “ritually impure.” For example, a woman who was menstruating was “toevah.” It had nothing to do with whether or not she was having sex during her menses.

    So, having established that … I will now attempt to dumb down sexual mores of the time so that you can understand them. Sex was not something that happened between equals: there was a “do-er” and a “do-ee,” for lack of a better way to put it. A free man could have sex with a woman because she was beneath him: she was considered chattel. A free man could have sex with slaves of either gender for the same reason: they were beneath him. Two free men having sex with one another were “toevah,” and, like the woman after her period was over, they had to be ritually purified before returning to temple.

    Period, end of report.

    Here’s everything Jesus said about homosexuality, ever: ” ”

    Oh, and if you think he would have condemned a same-sex couple, I suggest you re-read the story of the centurion and his beloved slave. The linguistics employed in the original language demonstrate that the relationship would have been understood to be sexual in nature.

    You are talking out your backside on this one, sonny.

  • Shawn Rogers

    yes yes I know my spelling is bad. I text fast and spell bad but speak in truth and love. Reading and understanding is two different things. Morals history good stories can be found by reading …. Christ can only be found by seeking through faith. Love in Christ

  • fiona64

    I don’t need your proselytizing, thanks.

    And yes, you’re right: reading and understanding are two different things. And you haven’t understood a damned thing you’ve read.

    Because I have read the works in their original languages, I guarantee that my understanding exceeds yours.

  • fiona64

    STOP EXCUSING JOSH DUGGAR’S CRIMES.

  • fiona64

    I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, where we all talk about Paul Bunyan. That doesn’t mean he was real.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Why I gotta be a little man though? 1 what is the definition of fornication? 2. What is the bibles/ Gods design for marrage?
    3. Your context for Laviticus is off. Read the whole chapter it says do not do these things 29

  • Kelly Knight

    I’m not, are you? I just don’t think he is/was a hypocrite. I think people are not understanding that when a person repents they are forgiven, (by God, even if they are not forgiven by men) and as such they are not hypocrites for teaching against the sin from which they have repented. D

  • Shawn Rogers

    Ok phew chill out before you have a heart attack. Like I said there is a difference between secular understanding of what happend in Rome and what was happening moraly. Their morality just like ours today plays a part in a countries prosperity or their demise.

  • Kelly Knight

    Sin is what I am talking about. I don’t find Josh to be a hypocrite to repent of his sins and then teach against them. I am not making a comment on the laws of the land which govern what can and cannot be considered a crime. D

  • Kelly Knight

    I think it is both, and I choose to teach about sin as a way to bring people to an understanding of what God wants of them in both a positive and negative light. For example, God does not want Josh to sin sexually against women, (the negative light), but God does want Josh to repent (the positive light). Crime and punishment are different topics. I think Josh committed a crime, as a lot of people do. I also think he may have not been treated properly by his parents or by law enforcement. That is not for me to judge, because I have not been called to serve on a jury. D

  • TimTripod

    I am not at all excusing what he did. It was terrible. It was indeed a crime, but that doesn’t preclude it from also being a mistake. Consider illegal drugs, shoplifting, vandalizing, etc. — these are all things that kids do from time to time, be it smoking pot, stealing a candy bar, spray-painting graffiti, or messing with a little kid (for example, see the fairly recent story about Lena Dunham sexually abusing her younger sister). Now, some of these things are more shocking than others, some of them have clearer victims than others, but none of them are morally or legally permissible. Kids do dumb things. They make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are crimes.

    So again, I am not excusing his behavior. What I take issue with is people who are saying that because he did something very wrong a decade ago, it means he’s nothing but a fraud. That’s basically what is happening here. It’s not some preacher who cheats on his wife during the week and preaches against adultery on Sundays. It’s not some politician who steals money from a charity he runs. It’s a guy who did something wrong when he was a kid, and people are acting like his entire family and system of values are a sham because of it.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Did you read what I said about what Happend with Josh. Where did I excuse him. If anything from your perspective he was ok. I’m saying what happend was not lawful by man or by God. Where am I excusING him? Let me assure you that getting mad and being mean is not going to bother me. I am secure on my position and my trust in Jesus. And the majority of historians archiologist scholors old and new testement will hold to what I am saying. Yes people twist the scriptures every which way to feel better about there sin but for what? In the end what matters more how you felt or what a is true In Gods eyes. Dont be decieved God has given us all a moral base and it is never right or safe to ignore it.

  • fiona64

    You continue to refer to SEXUAL ASSAULT as a “sin” and a “mistake.” If you are incapable of seeing how this is excusing his behavior, it’s not my fault. Blame your lack of education. It is a CRIME that should have been dealt with as a CRIME. Period.

    The rest of your post is a bunch of nonsense. Again, your lack of education is not my fault.

  • fiona64

    Did you just seriously try to put SEXUAL ASSAULT in the same category as shoplifting? I can’t even … wow.

    The reason he’s being pointed out as a fraud is that he and his grifter mother were going around talking about how transfolk were going to sexually assault children in bathrooms — while he was busy sexually assaulting his younger siblings in their bedrooms, while they slept. He was the head of a known hate group, going around preaching about how GLBT people were “after your kids,” while being a sexual abuser himself.

    Perhaps the word “hypocrite” would suit your needs more effectively?

  • fiona64

    YOU ARE EXCUSING HIM. STOP IT.

  • fiona64

    I’m not angry, dearie. However, I can practically see the spittle drooling down your chin as you write.

    Crack a friggin’ book, dude. You have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to history.

  • fiona64

    I just don’t think he is/was a hypocrite.

    Really? Please, do explain how it is NOT hypocrisy when he and his grifter mother go around talking about how GLBT people are going to “get your kids in the bathroom,” while he was sexually assaulting his own sisters in their bedrooms while they slept?

    BTW, all evidence points to him having continued to assault his siblings after the alleged “repentance.” So, there’s that.

  • fiona64

    YOU are the one who fails to understand the context of Leviticus, because you don’t understand that context includes the history and the culture of the times. I’m sorry that I can’t dumb it down any further for you: I did the best I could to use small words that you would understand. I guess my failing is believing that you were capable of so doing.

    Let’s talk about the bible’s design for marriage, though, shall we? Is it Leverate marriage, where a man is obliged to marry his brother’s widow (Deut 25:5-10)? Is it where a man can marry his rape victim as long as he pays the father for the damaged goods (Deut 22:28-29)? Is it one man and many women (Gen 29:28, Judges 8:30, 2 Kings 11:3 and many more)? Is it one man and a woman he abducted during war (Deut 21:10-14)? I’m keen to know.

    You are on shaky ground here, little man … whether you want to admit it to yourself or not. And I think that what burns you up the most is that a woman is correcting your piss-poor understanding of your own holy book, seeing as how we’re supposed to be submissive and silent and all — especially about church matters (1 Corinthians 14:34).

    I strongly recommend that you learn to live with the disappointment.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Ok don’t take this the wrong way but I see now why you see scripture as you do. Now I’m not yelling at you but just being CLEAR WHAT JOSH DID WAS A CRIME AND IS PUNISHABLE BY LAW. WHAT JOSH DID WAS A SIN AND IF NOT REPENTED FOR WILL BE DEALT WITH BY GOD. HE IS GUILTY AS WE ALL ARE. Phew. So are we good with that. One more thing. Under your previous interpertation of liviticus 18 Josh was only Ritualy unclean! It says you should NOT lay with your sister sexually. So from your argument what’s the big deal? You need to stay on one side or the other. You are flip-flopping.

  • Shawn Rogers

    So I’m not sure what your point is about marrage. Yes it is a sin to rape for we should not steal. But the women is the one who is hurt and now not able to marry so unfortunately you broke it you bought it. (Not that women are possessions but those were harsh times and women did not do well on their own. now you mentioned what Jesus said…. he came to bring clarity to what the spirit of the law was and he did say one man and one women. In early humanity who else would Adams kids marry but family. That practise was was halted after eqypt because the humen genome begain to degrade Leviticus 18 says dont do these things because it would bring deseases like hemophilia which the Egyptian royal families dealt with. Mary your brother wife. When a husban died women were free to marry agian. It was proper for her to stay in the family she married into and as stated women did not do well alone. While we may not see things today as they did the law was given to protect as best it could those of the day from somany horrable things that surrounding nations were doing. But Christ for filled the law and in him we are perfect according to it. Also the Jesus said and Paul that the law was good. It taught us right and wrong. Jesus was good with it and brought further clarity to aspects of it even raising the bar.

  • fiona64

    You were the one who asked me to give the Biblical definition of marriage, Shawn. Are you now annoyed that there isn’t just one?

    “You broke it, you bought it”? Well, you’re right; a woman was no different than a dish or a lamp: she was a man’s PROPERTY. This was not about *her* being damaged; it was about her father’s PROPERTY being damaged.

    The rest of your poorly written screed is dismissed as the nonsense that it is.

    You clearly are incapable of comprehending cultural context or much of anything else when it comes to the era we are discussing. I can explain it all day long, but I cannot understand it for you.

  • Shawn Rogers

    O.k. two things I’d like to point out in every instance of your description of marrage it was a man and a women correct? I did say that Jesus brought clarity to the law when he was asked about marrige aND divorce stating it should be between one man and one women. And yes you are correct it was not an easy life for women of that time.

  • fiona64

    O.k. two things I’d like to point out in every instance of your description of marrage it was a man and a women correct?

    How long have you been tapdancing, Bojangles?

  • Shawn Rogers

    So no argument ?

  • fiona64

    Is your “argument” seriously that polygyny (as I cited) is one man/one woman?

    And you wonder why I asked how long you’d been tap-dancing? Really?

    You are an embarrassment to your faith. My argument has been presented and yours has been shredded. I suggest you quit before you make an even greater @ss of yourself than you have already done.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Ok let me restate agian …..I’m not yelling. YES IN THE OLD TESTEMENT MOSAIC LAW MEN WERE ABLE TO MARRY MORE THAN ONE WOMEN. IT WAS ALLOWD. BUT
    …. (NOTICE AGIAN MEN MARRING WOMEN NOT MEN AND MEN OR WOMEN AND WOMEN) AND IN MARRAGE THE BED IS UNDEFILED. ANY SEXUAL UNION OUT SIDE OF MARRAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMEN IS NOT GODS DESIGN. THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH WILL NOT ABIDE WITH THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IN ETERNATY. In Geniuses God told Adam to populate the earth and he allow men to marry more than one women. Jesus never said it was a bad thing for men to have more then one wife but it is better to be dedicated to one and the two should be one flesh. That is what God said in the beginning And Jesus brought them right back to what was established from the beginning. That is the best situation in marrage because multiple marrige create mass chaos as we saw in King David’s family. Jesus clarified the law And was returning them to its original intent.

  • pennyroyal

    You can be Christian without believing or accepting the doctrine of atonement. Most of the early Christians didn’t believe Jesus was god. The human was a teacher of ethics and valuing oneself. The present version of Christian in the USA is predicated, at least for fundamentalists and evangelical Catholics, is a contingent Christ. Versions of Christ have always evolved. This one is unhealthy, IMO. It’s sin obsessed and controlling of people’s mind with guilt and shame.
    Read the theology the Duggars follow. It’s pretty extreme.

  • Fired, Aren’t I

    I think they DID do something to protect them. They kept their mouths shut. A woman speaking out in a family like that is grounds for punishment. And considering they had NO education regarding sex and sexuality, they probably simply felt shamed and blamed themSELVES. AFter all, women are temptresses and boys cannot be helped, according to that culture.

  • Fired, Aren’t I

    Let’s clear this up: You’re putting the responsibility of protecting children from sibling sexual assault into the would-be victims’ hands. NOT the parents’ and NOT the would-be assaulter. And mind you, these girls are between 6 and 12.

    Do you have any idea how fucked up you sound right now?

    As fucked up as you THINK every single Christian on earth is. Time to look in a mirror.

  • fiona64

    Sweet mother of pearl, dude: it’s Genesis, not “Geniuses,” just for starters.

    I have already explained why you are all kinds of wrong with regard to Leviticus. The link I provided to actual rabbinical commentary on the matter is still pending, but I will provide it here. Replace the word “dot” with actual periods and read it for your own damn self. I’m sick of trying to educate the ineducable. http://taste-of-torah dot blogspot dot com/2012/04/lie-about-lying-with-man-acharei-mot.html

    The rest of your post is just more bogus tap-dancing. You should seriously change your handle to Mr. Bojangles.

  • fiona64

    IT can be looked at as child abuse.

    That’s because it *is* child abuse.

  • Shawn Rogers

    You are correct.

  • Shawn Rogers

    I agree it makes no sense to continue because I already said Jesus corrected the twisted beliefs of the law. UT of course they went for blood because of that. People don’t like truth they love error.

  • Jim Reed

    Its not the optimal situation, but it is the best they have. The parents won’t help much, and other authority figures like church leaders won’t help them. They still have each other, and that might be all they have, so it is best if they make use of it. And it is way better than your idea that they should rely on nobody, not even their sisters. I am saying we need to be realistic here, and not crazy stupid just because that religion is.

  • Jim Reed

    As far as “every single Christian on earth” I think the question is still what is Christianity? Is it believing the mythical Jesus person lives in your heart? I think there has never been any clear answer as to exactly what Christianity is, just a million excuses as to why that kind of question is meaningless.

  • Kelly Knight

    Well, I don’t agree with the religion that the Duggars follow, but really, are you trying to argue that Christian isn’t a word? It has a meaning, and that isn’t “a good human”. It was someone who followed Jesus because he was/is the promised Christ. He atones for sin, hence the focus on sin and the teaching of repentance. Following Jesus Christ isn’t extreme, believing in the atonement isn’t extreme, but it is a prerequisite for being a Christian. (Think about the root of the word, think about it’s meaning instead of just what the Duggars believe) 🙂 D

  • Kelly Knight

    It is not hypocrisy to teach what is correct. I have not heard that he had continued his actions. It is correct to teach that sexual desires should be held within the bounds God has taught. Keeping sexual intercourse between a husband and wife is a correct Christian teaching, so they are teaching what they are trying to live.

  • Kelly Knight

    I am not excusing anyone since I don’t have that power. I am teaching what I believe is correct.

  • Jim Reed

    Christianity is a religion, and Christians are those who follow, to whatever extent, the church. All the doctrines about Jesus are just methods people use to believe their church is the right one, and the others are wrong. This might be the most important part of the religion, because when it is this screwed up you need a lot of reasonings to keep all the, “I’m right and you are wrong” explanations going. Plus you need apologist but thankfully Christianity is the expert at creating those.

  • Jim Reed

    We are ready now. You can start telling us what is correct

  • Jim Reed

    Correction, he was assaulting his sisters in their bedroom (singular). I don’t know that we can say for sure they were sleeping. They might have been faking that part.

  • TimTripod

    And this is exactly my problem. He did something very bad when he was a kid, and people like you are acting like he did it recently. You say he was talking about “how transfolk were going to sexually assault children in bathrooms — while he was busy sexually assaulting his younger siblings . . .” as though he had just done it the day before! You say “he was the head of a known hate group [sic]”, as though he were in that career when he was a young teenager. You’re looking at the transgressions of a stupid, messed-up kid, and saying that the adult version of him is a scumbag and a hypocrite. That is just wrong.

  • fiona64

    So, you are putting sexual assault in the same category as shoplifting.

    Wow.

    You think it’s wrong to point out that he lead a hate group as an adult? You think it’s wrong to point out that he accused transfolk of doing what he did (molesting children)?

    You need counseling.

  • fiona64

    You’re right. One bedroom for the boys and one for the girls. My fault.

  • fiona64

    You are excusing the SEXUAL ASSAULT of children because “he told God he was sorry.” The truth is that the ONLY thing Josh Duggar is sorry about is that the truth came out (although his parents worked awfully hard to make sure that didn’t happen until after the statute of limitations ran out).

    You are excusing a CRIME because … Jesus, or something.

    Stop it.

  • fiona64

    It is not hypocrisy to teach what is correct.

    So, you believe that GLBT people are going to “get your kids in the bathroom”? Because that’s what they were teaching.

    You are most politely described as naive. I will leave it at that.

  • fiona64

    Take care

    And you take some English classes.

  • Jim Reed

    Actually this is not really about what Josh did as much as it is about the problems that come from the fundamentalist environment and how their approach to raising their daughters basically invited this whole mess. You can’t put this on Josh or blaming him. You have to deal with that church and their beliefs and the consequences of that lifestyle.

  • Jim Reed

    Fiona,
    You aren’t going to accomplish much by lecturing him on Jesus or something. Try lecturing him on Mormonism.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Yes I do need to proof read more. Take care

  • fiona64

    I can’t even get him to understand that sexual assault =/= shoplifting, for crying out loud.

  • fiona64

    The left in the country has spent so much time hating Christians that they don’t understand Christianity any longer.

    Oh, I understand what Christianity is … and the typical “Christian conservative” is so far away from what Jesus actually taught that it’s risible.

    Your “who would Jesus hate” version of the religion is not anything I want any part of, thanks.

  • fiona64

    The atonement of Jesus Christ, (ya know, the core of Christian belief!)
    is about making mistakes, even evil ones, and repenting, changing and
    moving forward with life.

    Sexual assault is not a “mistake.” It is a CRIME. Stop excusing it.

  • TimTripod

    Shoplifting can be a felony, depending on the amount.
    Doing illegal drugs can be a felony, depending on the offense.
    Vandalism can a felony, depending on how much property you damage.
    Sexual assault can be a felony, depending on what it is you did.

    All of these things are either misdemeanors or felonies, depending on the seriousness. They are all crimes. You keep acting baffled that I would list shoplifting alongside sexual assault. Now, perhaps shoplifting is something you’re more comfortable with, even acquainted with, but that doesn’t make it any less of a crime in the eyes of the law. So, as you can see, I am not “putting sexual assault in the same category” as the other crimes. The law does that: they are all crimes. So please stop acting so shocked that I would place crimes alongside *gasp!* other crimes. That just makes you look ignorant.

    FRC is not a hate group. I am aware that a non-profit, pro-LGBT organization, the SPLC, has decided to categorize them as such. But that’s so silly — a private, non-profit group that endorses LGBT rights publishes a list of organizations that disagrees with its own mission? Big whoop, Fiona. Several organizations and individuals have pointed the absurdity and irrelevance of their “hate map” — it’s basically just a list of people who have a focus that is contrary to the focus of SPLC.
    Yes, I do think you are wrong in your focus here. The guy made terrible, criminal mistakes in his past. His parents, and he, took steps to right those wrongs, including going to the police and undergoing counseling. They’ve tried to put it behind them, including the victims who are now having to face the media speculation. But you aren’t letting that happen. You’re crucifying a guy for something he did when he was a kid. That’s wrong.

  • Jim Reed

    I think he is setting you up for the sales pitch. Isn’t that the way it works?

  • fiona64

    Oh, boy … are his feelings ever going to be hurt. 😉

  • fiona64

    FRC is not a hate group.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    His parents, and he, took steps to right those wrongs, including going to the police and undergoing counseling.

    Nope. They took him to a family friend, who happened to be a cop (said cop is now doing time for child porn, BTW) who gave him a stern stalking-to. And the “counseling” consisted of going and helping a friend remodel his home.

    Sexual assault can be a felony, depending on what it is you did.

    The police report clearly indicates that it was a felony. You can see it here. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/05/24/judge-with-ties-to-mike-huckabee-orders-the-destruction-of-josh-duggars-police-report/

    You’re crucifying a guy for something he did when he was a kid.

    Really? I’m nailing him to a tree? I know that “priesthood holders” aren’t accustomed to being corrected by women, but I think you need to learn the difference between crucifixion and criticism.

    He repeatedly committed crimes. His parents hushed it up. The only thing he’s sorry about is that he was caught.

  • Shawn Rogers

    I’m cool with the bible and reading and studing what the majority of mainstream newtestement historians and Greek hebrew scholars, archiologist and historians have agreed on. it is the majority who agree the bible is a very reliable historical book. This is agreed on even by secular scholarship apart from the accounts of miricals. The fact that after countless years of scrutiny and research the bible has stood it’s ground as being reliable. Im good with that. But thanks for sharing.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Let’s see. I once hid a bad report card from my parents–I buried my glasses when I was five and lied that I lost them because I didn’t like them. I’ve gotten a parking ticket. But I’ve never committed a felony and I have never sexually assaulted anyone.

  • lady_black

    No True Scotsman. How refreshingly original. Yes, the Duggars are “true Christians” in every LITERAL sense of the word. Thus illustrating that trying to live according to Bronze Age mythology in the 21st century is exceedingly foolish, and comes with it’s own set of bad news. Have 19 children, sell them woo-woo in response to their natural process of growing up and becoming adults in their own right, and even go so far as to insist that women NEVER become adults and are merely chattel children who move through life always under the authority of some man or another (even a younger brother that she raised, because no one mother can ever do an adequate job parenting 19 kids). This is what you end up with. I’m sick of the woo-woo, sick of the excuses, and sick of the Duggars. Begone with them. They disgust me.

  • lady_black

    Fruit of the same poisonous tree.

  • CherryTheTart

    If he were my son and I became convinced he would sexually assault more children, I would kill him myself. I would consider that my duty to do so. I brought him in. I can take him out.

  • Jim Reed

    The jailed pornographer cop also accused them of lying when they told him it was only one girl, and they knew it was a roomful. If he knew that part, he would have reported Josh.

  • CherryTheTart

    JimBob was running for office on a platform of death to those who commit incest while Josh was incesting his sisters and JimBob knew it. Disgusting dishonesty.

    At 13 according to the Bible, Josh is a grown man. Whose standards are we using. The Bible? The laws of Arkansas?JimBob, Josh and their pals ignored all the laws.

    I am beginning to wonder is this is not an organized ring of pedophiles. The Catholics did it. The Mormons did it. Why not the Protestants?

  • lady_black

    Yes, the poop said it wasn’t necessary to breed like rabbits. But he also doesn’t want Catholics using contraception, either. What he expects is abstinence from married adults, like that’s 1) somehow “natural”, or 2) EVER going to happen. OK here’s the unvarnished truth, people: Historically, and at present, Homo sapiens has three methods of dealing with unwanted reproduction. Contraception, abortion and abandonment/infanticide. Where the first two are made difficult, the third is going to become inevitable. If you want to get all “Christy” about it, contraceptives and abortifacient plants existed and were in common use when Jesus walked the earth, and he surely knew about them. Never said a word. Being a Jew, he knew that unborn life doesn’t have the same status as born life. Instead of whipping the midwives, he chose to whip the money changers (read profiteering parasites) in the temple, and reserved his harshest criticism for the legalistic hypocrites who were the religious “leaders” of the time. Actually, they were conspiring with the Romans to keep the people of Judea down, in order to preserve their own wealth and power. Too many so-called “Christians” today have devolved into everything Jesus stood up against. The entire religion is corrupt.

  • lady_black

    NO. That is an empty definition.

  • fiona64

    Shorter Shawn: I didn’t bother reading the rabbinical commentary.

    It’s okay to admit that.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Tou have to be very careful reading commentary from religious pastors … which is defined as an expression of opinions of explication about an event or situation. I’d rather pray and let the bible speak for it self. While truthfully since none of us physical walked with Jesus Moses or Paul we all have to study and hold fast to our convictions on faith. We have to follow where we belive the evidence leads us.

  • Shawn Rogers

    I have also had some Jewish friends some who were othodox and I have found that much of what they are tought is not the bible but commentary. Basic ly what rabbi so as so said about so and so. They have their spin to justify what they belive. One guy I talked to could not belive moses was a murderer because of their high view of him. He was shocked when I showed it to him in the bible. It was the same in Jesus day which is why he continually tried to bring them back to Gods intent for his word. They hated him for that. That is why the Holy Spirit is so importiant to the christian. He is our teacher.

  • Kelly Knight

    And crimes are not mistakes? Of course they are! And I am not excusing the action. To repent of an error, sin, or crime if you prefer is to admit that you were wrong that those who opposed you, i.e. condemned you, were right. There is no excuse making happening here. I think you use that word without understanding what it means.

  • Kelly Knight

    The atonement is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He also suffered for our sins so we don’t have to if we repent. Calling people to repent isn’t about hating them, it is about wanting to let them have full access to the atonement and the opportunity to return to God. The atonement is also where Jesus took up His body again after death and thereby giving to all mankind (even those who don’t accept Him!) eternal life. “For since by man came death, even so by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, (everybody dies, even if they don’t believe in death!) even so in Christ shall all be made alive. So, I am not feeling that the atonement is ugly in the least, but rather it is amazing! The suffering I see everywhere (thanks new media!), the lost and suffering, the death and destruction, will all be overcome. We will hold our loved ones again, and the sick, afflicted, and even the tormented will have peace. How am I to tell myself that I should not be sharing that message? How can I condemn someone one else who has reached for redemption, from his own sins, and found it? I won’t. I am not privy to exactly the sins committed, and I am not privy to exactly the measure of Josh’s repentance. It seems real, and as such I will not be the one to condemn him further. I also don’t think he, or anyone, who has repented of their sins, are being hypocrites for teaching against sin. It is entirely possible that they do not focus on the blessings of the gospel as much as they could (speaking of an entire denomination here!) but really?, is that so evil that we should forsake goodness ourselves and wish them hate and harm? I say no. D

  • Kelly Knight

    fiona64, there is nothing about being GLBT that exempts people from being evil. It is just as possible that a GLBT person will hurt a child in a bathroom as there is that a man or a woman who are not GLBT will hurt a child in a bathroom. I always felt that the reason we had a separation of the sexes, male and female, for the use of the bathroom was for protection from predators. Since every category of person can have the possibility of being a predator, then we try to diminish the chances of some hurting ourselves or our children. We will never be free of those types, not in this life, but it is reasonable to protect ourselves. How would you suggest we protect ourselves and our children? (And no fair, you can’t say get rid of Josh! LOL) We could go on and on about this. I think we should not break down the barriers we currently have until we have addressed the real problem. D

  • Kelly Knight

    Why do you think I am excusing the crime? I think you just hate people like me and that reason is beyond you (to be fair I will add) at this time. D

  • gapaul

    Yes, I completely agree — I wish the pope would go further, and women have been chewing on this or that to bring on a miscarriage forever. I still think one could find a general cultural preference for large families (often through multiple wives) across cultures and ancient belief systems.

  • Kelly Knight

    Christian is a name that was applied to a person who choose to accept that Jesus is the Christ. Church is an organization. We have the right to disagree with each other and with you, that doesn’t diminish us as human beings. You are not providing any more intellectual value than the “I’m right and you are wrong” idea you seem to hate.

  • Kelly Knight

    Really, are you lost?

  • TimTripod

    Well, Jim, unless there comes to light some shred of evidence that would support the notion that this “whole mess” occurred because of the “fundamentalist environment” they were brought up in, I think we can safely dismiss your point as baseless propaganda.

    Do you suppose Lena Dunham’s sexual abuse of her sister happened because of her fundamentalist upbringing? Oh wait, that’s right . . . she wasn’t brought up in a fundamentalist home. She was just another messed up kid — the difference is people don’t make as big a deal out of her offenses because she doesn’t hold moral standards as high as the Duggars do. The way things are at this point, the media hype seems to be more about perceived hypocrisy than anything else.

  • lady_black

    Yeah, right. We aren’t living in ancient belief systems. “Preference?” I think not. Try necessity. Many hands were needed to do the work of survival, and many children never saw their first birthday, and many women and fetuses died in childbirth. Context is everything.

  • gapaul

    Sigh. This was a thread — I was replying to a comment about ancient beliefs and replying to you in light of that previous discussion. You can relax, we agree.
    I chose the word “preference” because I thought it covered all ground — people who needed children to farm, or to take care of them in their old age — or to ensure their dynasty, or to give them cultural prestige. Royalty did not need a large family to farm, but was perhaps satisfying other cultural expectations.

  • Jim Reed

    Every religion is just a religion. The “accept that Jesus is the Christ” is just words. We run into trouble when religions start to believe their words and take them too seriously.

  • Jim Reed

    Maybe you are not ready to talk yet.

  • Jim Reed

    I think in a normal home, you can’t have a room full of 5 sisters, and then a brother starts molesting them, and not have the girls start screaming bloody murder so that the parents come and whip the boy. Something is different in this family. We may not have the whole story yet, but there is something here that we need to get to the bottom of so that we as a nation can better see how to not be so insane. We need to help the fundamentalist religion figure this out.

  • fiona64

    Why do you think I am excusing the crime?

    Because you are equating it with getting a math problem wrong, missing a bus stop, and other “youthful mistakes.”

    I think you just hate people like me

    For excusing SEXUAL ASSAULT? You’re goddamned right I do.

  • lady_black

    I’m glad we agree, but ancient preferences, like ancient “anything” is by definition, not relevant now.

  • Jennifer Starr

    I think you just hate people like me

    I don’t don’t like abuse apologists either.

  • fiona64

    I always felt that the reason we had a separation of the sexes, male
    and female, for the use of the bathroom was for protection from
    predators.

    No, really, it wasn’t. It was more for female privacy because, unlike you, we can’t just stand with our backs to the door. ::ahem::

    That’s beside the point, though. You are excusing a serial sexual abuser.

    How would you feel if it were your daughters whom he had assaulted? Would it just be “youthful mistakes” then?

  • fiona64

    The only thing Josh Duggar is sorry for is that he was caught. That is very apparent in his statements.

    Again, I ask, would it be mere “mistakes” if it were YOUR daughters being assaulted?

  • fiona64

    Thanks for admitting that you didn’t read it.

    Continue wallowing in your ignorance; you obviously find it comforting to do so.

  • fiona64

    You’re right; why should you let actual facts presented by educated people influence you? It’s easier to “pray about the matter” than it is to apply any actual scholarship to your beliefs.

    Perhaps you can look it up in the book of “Geniuses,” as you put it.

    ::eyeroll::

  • fiona64

    Your “poisoned well” logical fallacy is duly noted.

  • fiona64

    I give up – why are you trying to lump a dumb, 14-year-old,
    smack-in-the-middle-of-puberty kid in with adult, married, cheating,
    preachers?

    That’s rich, coming from the guy who equates a 14-year-old SEXUALLY ASSAULTING his sisters with someone who pockets a 50 cent pack of gum.

  • Shawn Rogers

    If you speak of Commentary they are not facts. But yes I do listen to and read books and papers by theologians PhDs in old testement literature. But i don’t read everything because some things really are fringe thinking. I read Cs Lewis ,listen to a lot of Ravi Zacarious and teaching on people like Aquinas , and lots of podcast debates by phd’s in pholosophy and newtestement scholarship. But i study the bible alot and yes I pray for the Holy Spirit to Give me understanding Of his word. It is always best to get the understanding from the source. Wink my eye.

  • lady_black

    Puritanism: The overwhelming obsession that someone, somewhere, might be enjoying themselves, and must be punished for that.

  • lady_black

    You’re absolutely correct. A mistake is stepping on the cat’s tail. A mistake is making the wrong turn, or missing your exit on the interstate. A mistake is bringing home chunk pineapple instead of ring pineapple. Molesting prepubescent children repeatedly over a 16 month period (that we know of) is NOT a “mistake.” That’s a deliberate course of wrong action.

  • lady_black

    Six of one, half a dozen of the other. They’re all complete crap.

  • Shawn Rogers

    One other thing Christ did not go through all the trouble of becoming a man liveing a perfect life dying on the cross and rising again so that we can have a whole bunch of fact…s he did it so that we could have a relationship with him which is ultimately what we need so while we may study figures and do lots of research, and those things are important, but inevitably we all have to decide what the information means for us as individuals. We have to make a decision based on faith that what we have found and reasoned it to mean is true enough for us to pattern our life after. If you have found peace in your disbelief then who am I to say any different. I have peace with Christ and what I have studied confirms that. yes there will always be more questions and the search goes on . There are alot of ideas and alot of well educated people that are very closed minded when it comes to God. It is a faith walk first. You must first belive that he is and he is a rewarder of those who seek him.

  • lady_black

    Nobody said we should lock him up and throw away the key. But he should have been locked up, for the protection of his siblings. The reason he didn’t get any real, professional counseling is because actual counselors are mandatory reporters. And so, by the way, is that pedophile “state trooper” buddy of theirs. Whether Josh and his parents believe that his “faith” cancels out any debt to his “god” is irrelevant. We in the USA do not deal in “sin.” We deal in laws and crimes. Josh Duggar committed crimes, and his parents made sure he never had to pay his debt to society, or receive any genuine help for the crimes he committed. Any thinking person can see why this is a major problem, even without looking at what was done to his victims, in being forced to live with their abuser and by golly they better be glad about it. There are way too many layers of FAIL involved here to dissect in a single blog comment.

  • lady_black

    This is the second such suggestion. Let’s see if he does.

  • lady_black

    Thou shalt turn off the tap when the tub is full.

  • Shawn Rogers

    scholarship has its place but let me give you an example of why I trust the Holy Spirit and God’s Word more than just people who have a lot of letters behind their name
    Scholors for years said that the universe was eternal they laughed Christians to scorn saying it’s foolish to believe that the universe was created and why would you believe what thw bible teaches. Today its all about the Big Bang an expanding universe which was created and no ligitimate scholor would say anything different. but the same thing they laughed and said why would you believe that now they are saying that the Bible doesn’t say that the universe was created and it is circular reasoning. so now they’re trying to explain away what they laughed at us and saw plainly before. agian I say with out faith given by grace we will all stay in our darkend mind on our way to hell. But Christ comes to set us free from the darkness that sin keeps us in. I am the way the TRUTH and the LIFE Christ said. I belive it..You should too.

  • fiona64

    I have already told you that I don’t want your proselytizing. Is that hard for you to understand as well?

  • fiona64

    If you have found peace in your disbelief

    You make an awful lot of erroneous assumptions.

    I don’t believe that the deity gave us brains so that we would NOT use them.

    I will not ask you again to cease proselytizing to me; I will just start reporting you for it.

  • fiona64

    If you speak of Commentary they are not facts.

    I think we’ve already established that you cannot read scripture in the original languages … which is kind of necessary in order to understand why commentary *is* facts.

  • lady_black

    Belief requires action.

  • gapaul

    This is why we can’t have nice things. Like reasonable conversations on the internet. People want to “win,” at all costs. They don’t even know, remember or care what point they’re making. A few dozen posts ago you referred to the “bronze age,” if I’d come along and said “irrelevant” — it would make as much sense. So last word — you take it.

  • TimTripod

    You clearly misunderstand that particular fallacy. Perhaps you should look it up for review.

  • pennyroyal

    Thanks SO much. I was trying to remember that quote. In trying to purify the faith, evangelicals ditch the heart of Christianity, at least for me, that of compassion and mercy.

  • fiona64

    No, I understand it perfectly. Just be grateful that I didn’t point out your tu quoque logical fallacy … until now, of course.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Stop being so hatefull…life is to short for all of that.

  • Shawn Rogers

    words can’t hurt you that much can they ? We are just talking right. From your perspective what’s not real can’t hurt you so lighten up. Smile

  • Shawn Rogers

    Not sure where you are going with the last statment. it is not about the original language. I thank God for those who painstakenly interpreted and are still doing so , so his word can be read and change liveS. Commentary is not interpretation. Commentary is openions on what was written after it has been read. What we need more than any thing else is God’s Spirit to give us his understanding. With out that we just have stories of history and rules that no one can perfectly follow. It is his Spirit that brings the full understanding of what God’s word is about…why he has done what he has and what impact it has to mankind.

  • Kevin Bailey

    I agree with every word you wrote here, except where you say that “nobody said we should lock him up and throw away the key.” While they may not have used those words, people HAVE advocated for punishing him as if he were an adult when it happened. I think what his PARENTS did, in covering up the molestation, should be a criminal offense.

    But yes, he SHOULD have spent time in juvenile lockup, getting REAL counseling. What worries me now is the psyche of the girls (now young women) that he molested. I think it’s clear that the Duggars likely pressured their youngest daughter (of the 4 we know he molested) into requesting the destruction of the police record. Since she is still a minor, she’s the only one with standing to request such a destruction. At no point were those little girls provided with REAL counseling that could have helped them start to mend. I worry that the ramifications of what their older brother and their parents did to them when they were little will manifest itself later in their lives.

  • LadyGreenEyes

    At fourteen, raised in a family that is supposedly teaching purity, he knew better than to do what he did. His parents knew better than to conceal it from the police till years later, when the statute of limitations ran out. They protected him, not his victims. As a conservative Christian, I find their actions reprehensible.

  • LadyGreenEyes

    Sexual assault isn’t a simple childhood mistake. He and his parents are hypocrites, preaching about morality (which is a good thing) while covering up serious immorality. If what he did had been properly handled, and not hidden for years, that would be something.

  • Sheri

    Nutter

  • Sheri

    He still committed a crime

  • Sheri

    There is no “homosexual agenda”, but Josh duggar is a pedophile incestuous molester

  • Sheri

    Where’s your daughter?

  • Sheri

    You’re so brainwashed it’s sickening to observe

  • Jim Reed

    I don’t think there is anything to gain there. It seems like a better approach would be to try to get one or more of the sisters to talk about it, and see how they view the fundamentalist approach. When they do decide to talk, I am not sure where it will lead, but any discussion will be a positive development.

  • Shawn Rogers

    But I have to say being brainwashed by Christ is AWSOME! Ephesians 4:22-23 throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life which is corrupted by lust and deception 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your minds. So you can call it brainwashing soul washing what ever. It is a daily washing and as you can see in Josh’s life as well as all of us it is needed daily. For there is none rightious no not one there is none that understand there is none that seeks after God they have all gone out of the way they have altogether become worthless no one does good not even one. Romans 3 :10-12. I accept that assesment of my life and ask Jesus to cover my faults with His rightiousness so that I can be accepted in his site. I have no rightiousness but I have accepted His. I assume Josh did too. CHRIST dealt with our sins by his blood that we may be justified before Him..BUT WHAT SOCIAL LAWS WE BREAK MUST BE DEALT WITH BY MANS LAW. There is a remedy for your sickness too.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Or maybe he was just born that way. Maybe it is natural for him. Maybe they should change the definition of marrage so he can marry them! Maybe all network programming should have atleast one pedophile on their show. MAYBE HE SHOULD GET BUMPERSTICKERS WITH A CHILD SHAPED RANBOW. Maybe he should have the Supreme Court meet to decide! (No there is no homosexual agenda!)

  • fiona64

    Shawn, just stop it. You seem to be unable to address me with out proselytizing, which I have THRICE very respectfully asked you to stop.

    Your understanding of scripture is a mile wide and an inch deep. I’m just going to leave it at that.

  • Lindsey116

    “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” Matthew 6:5-6

    Wonder if the Duggars ever read this while they were combing their bibles for passages condemning homosexuality?

  • fiona64

    Oh, f*ck you and your “lighten up and smile” nonsense. I have asked you to stop proselytizing to me. You have made assumptions about my belief system that are 100 percent erroneous.

    What part of “knock it off” is so hard for you to understand?

  • fiona64

    It is NOT hateful to ask you respectfully (as I have done REPEATEDLY) to stop proselytizing to me. Now I’m going to stop asking politely and tell you that if I find one more single, solitary instance of you doing so, I will report you to the editors of RD; proselytizing is a violation of TOS.

  • fiona64

    Flagged for proselytizing.

  • Jim Reed

    You don’t have to report him. Proselytizing on RD doesn’t hurt anyone, and it helps us see the contrast in thought patterns between believers and non-believers. It helps us see religion in action in real time.

  • Jim Reed

    The big question now is if Jesus was actually a real person at the beginning of the first century, because his story was written toward the end of the century, and there is a record of a different kind of Christianity in the middle of the century. We are now seeing a story of the church manipulating Jesus into place, and telling the story as if it happened a couple generations earlier, and gaining lots of converts.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Yes but at least it is consistant. Where you flip flop according to what makes you comfortable and is acceptable to you. You have yet to find one instance in the bible where anything other then a man and a women is considered marrage. You never addressed the fact that fornication (sex outside of marrage is a sin) you condemned Joshua for his sin yet fail to see that homosexuality is right there prohibited along side it. You speak of the Jewish teachers as athoritative but fail to see that Jesus was consistantly rebuking them for their lack of understanding of scripture. You have continually gnashed and scratched at me in an attempt to I assume break my thought process but you say you have been nice. What are you like when your upset. In any case this is not personal it is a discussion on topics that I feel are worthy of contemplation. Can we just stay on that road with out all the threats. And yes I do belive we all need Christ I’m not assayed to say that. I have a right to be out of the closet also.

  • Shawn Rogers

    Well theres my answer. I have nothing but love for you.

  • Shawn Rogers

    There were a lot of different Gospels of Jesus being spread. The question is which is the correct one. The Muslims have stories, the Nostics, and many other sects that all wanted to use Jesus doctorine to promote their own agendas. To be truthful no one knows for sure because we were not there. We all have to study and by faith follow what path we belive the evidence points us in. I see many of the documents of that time line up pritty good with the Gospels. Yes their are inconsistencies in some dates and historians document from their angle what things were importiant. The Grand scheme of the newtestement aligns with other historians of the time. That is more than we have on 75 percent of ancient history that we readily accept. It is the requirement the scriptures place on us and the weight of guilt it lays upon us (if taken as truth) that cause us to dig dig and search for some way to escape what Gods word says and our conscience afferms. We are all sinners in need of a savior.

  • lady_black

    I have seen people advocating for punishing him. Not locking him up and throwing away the key. There’s nothing wrong with that.

  • Shawn Rogers

    You also can’t forget Paul was writting and circulating his letters on the middle of the 1st century while those people who could affirm or deny the accounts could do so. Paul wrote to the churches to hold fast to what was taught by the Apostels as the truth and to avoid taking on any other variation. These letters were in circulation very early. Being that the Apostels walked with Jesus and Paul afferms their stories. APOSTEL JOHN taught his deciples and we can construct most of the new testement from their writtings so we know this information a was wide spread and accepted as the truth about Jesus.

  • fiona64

    No, you don’t. If you had a single iota of respect or “love” or whatever you want to call it, you would accept and follow a polite request to STOP PROSELYTIZING AT THE PERSON. Continuing to do so, even after being asked politely THREE TIMES does not demonstrate “love”; it demonstrates a total lack of respect for another person’s boundaries.

    Stop it.

  • fiona64

    That’s it, I’m done. Proselytizing is a violation of TOS. You have been asked to stop proselytizing to me, and how you have officially stated that you refuse to do so. I am now flagging every single one of your posts that violates TOS. It is not a threat, little man; it is a *promise.*

    Good day.

  • fiona64

    It is a violation of TOS, and yes it DOES hurt people. There are people here who have been seriously harmed by religion.

  • fiona64

    And now you’re being flagged for HATE SPEECH.