In Wake of Eric Garner Case, Southern Baptist Leader Rips Racism in the Church

After the failure yesterday of a grand jury to indict the New York police officer who was videotaped choking Eric Garner to death, Russell Moore, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, launched into a denunciation of racism in the church on the ERLC’s program “Questions and Ethics.”

Saying he was “shocked and grieved” by the news, Moore added:

Romans 13 says that the sword of justice is to be wielded against evildoers. Now, what we too often see still is a situation where our African-American brothers and sisters, especially brothers, are more likely to be arrested, more likely to be executed, more likely to be killed. And this is a situation in which we have to say, I wonder what the defenders of this would possibly say. I just don’t know. But I think we have to acknowledge that something is wrong with the system at this point and that something has to be done.

Moore added that in the wake of Ferguson, he has called for “churches that come together and know one another and are knitted together across these racial lines.” In response, though, he said, “And I have gotten responses and seen responses that are right out of the White Citizen’s Council material from 1964 in my home state of Mississippi, seeing people saying there is no gospel issue involved in racial reconciliation.”  

“Are you kidding me?” Moore exclaimed incredulously.

Moore went on to say that “we have some real problems in our society” and in “our own hearts and in our own churches:”

We have a group of people—a small group of people, not a lot of people—some unreconstructed racists in American society and we have some who continue to come and to sit in pews of churches and pretend as though they are disciples of Jesus Christ. And we have some other people who are willing to speak to any possible issue, from the framework of Scripture that goes on in the world until it comes to the question of whether or not we maybe do have some legitimate problems being faced by our African-American brothers and sisters in Christ, and then at that point they become completely silent and say the gospel doesn’t speak to this. I think that’s wrong. 

Some of these issues are going to be complicated, and some of these particular. . . when it comes to Ferguson we’re going to have different understandings of what the grand jury should have done and how they should have handled it. There are going to be some differing interpretations. But folks, when we’ve got police officers killing a man on video with a chokehold, can we not say there are still some problems in American society when it comes to race? 

This post has been updated to reflect corrected punctuation in the ERLC’s transcript of Moore’s remarks.

  • Jim Reed

    Southern Baptists have finally seen the light. All it took was a video showing the problem in New York City.

  • Frank6548

    There was no failure of the GJ.They did their job. Race was irrelevant in this case.

  • Gregory Peterson

    This is good…but…Mr. Moore has said things right out of the white Citizens’ Council playbook about another minority, the LGBT.

  • seashell

    “Are you ignorant of what it means to be ignorant?” ~Martin Luther

  • Frank6548

    See above.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    You think the police are permitted to choke an unarmed man to death, for selling cigarettes?

    What demented universe do you live in?

  • Jim Reed

    It’s not a demented universe, hopefully. It’s just a conservative country.

  • Johnesmith77

    He didn’t choke him to death, he choked him until submission. He died later in the hospital due to the choking, but it wasn’t meant to be lethal. You’re a fool if you think any police officer wants to kill a black man just because they are “racist”. In fact, a police officer can’t even defend himself from a black person without a lynch mob being formed. It would be better for an officer to break every bone in his body and live in peace than to have the audacity to do his job or protect his life and then live every day in fear.

  • Johnesmith77

    You’re right, it is now biblically accurate to break the law and resist arrest. It’s not like the Bible says anything about obeying authority, right? (sarcasm)

  • Hans

    the law is the last bastion of tyranny. Justice is what Christ about, not the Law. Was watching a human being cry “I can’t breathe” and NO ONE does anything, JUST?
    The callous and “obey the law ” comments remind me that history is replete with those who cheer the aggressive enforcement of law, that is until those same forces become abusive (think rounding up dirty jews). May God piece your heart with grace.

  • NavyBlues05

    Oh, now you’re a legal expert. Try again.

  • NavyBlues05

    The man died on the side walk as NO ONE was attempting any triage. That was not a submission hold, the pressure restricted airflow not blood flow.

  • Johnesmith77

    Romans 13:1-7 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.”

    Titus 3:1 “Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work”

    I don’t think America’s law are akin to the holocaust, but that is just me.

  • Jim Reed

    Bible verses don’t apply to America.

  • Johnesmith77

    Really? John Adams once said “we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other” and George Washington said “Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.”

  • Johnesmith77

    “Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief.

    “I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion—for who can search the human heart?—but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

    “In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious…there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.” (Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1830.)

  • Johnesmith77

    They called for an ambulance right away. I don’t know if they would know how to do a triage on a person in this case or not. However, the courts have found nothing wrong with their conduct.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    Who said anything about racism? I certainly didn’t.

    As for the rest…you seem not to understand what sort of a country a liberal democracy is. Police cannot go around killing people, even if they’ve committed a crime — in this case, quite a petty one.

  • Johnesmith77

    You replied to a comment about race, so I assumed you were inferring it. My bad.
    Nobody with more than half a brain seriously thinks that the police meant to kill the guy. And we are a constitutional federal republic…..

  • I Ron Man

    LGBT is NOT an ethnic group or a race. During the civil rights movement, LGBT was better off in its closet. Coming out to God can change LGBT members for the better.

  • NelsonRobison

    It seems that Rev. Moore has come to see that something is wrong with our society, with the church and with the individual believer of the Southern Baptist Church. For someone of the Southern Baptist persuasion to admit that a problem exists is a big leap forward, but for that same someone to admit that the problem exists within the church is an even bigger leap forward.

    Yet there exists within the church an even greater necessity, a lack of tolerance and understanding of the LGBT community. Also even though there is a call to action, the fact is that Southern Baptist churches are an entity unto themselves. They exist on their own, an individual church that makes its own decisions and though connected loosely to their parent church, they can and do decide what to believe and not to believe. Or at least that’s the way it used to be.

    Now though there remains a prickly and perceptible problem with race relations, in society and the church. The race relations in the church are more than prickly because of long standing ideals that were perpetuated by those who, in the South, held that Africans and their descendants living as slaves in the South, were not real people but were less than people, and even when considered against the background of true Christianity, they refused to see any African descended person as a real person.

    With Rev. Moore’s diatribe against racism it will definitely ruffle some feathers and if he means what he says, then I expect that the Southern Baptist Convention Commission on Ethics and Religious Liberty will have a new head very soon. Because the Southern Baptists are one of the major reasons that the Jim Crow laws existed and continued to exist after the Civil War and some say still exist in the hearts of those who claim to be Southern Baptist.

  • cranefly

    When rulers command you to disobey Christ, who do you follow?

  • cranefly

    Choking someone until submission violates the command of Christ.

    “But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.”

    Words out of God’s mouth. It could hardly be more clear.

  • Guest

    Wouldn’t it be funny if a cop shot you dead for no reason? Instead of protests, there would be parties!

  • Guest

    It’s a good thing for freedom loving patriots that John Adams left his dumbass beliefs about religion out of the constitution and any other legally enforceable document. I know that makes disgusting bigots like you sad. That’s another plus.

  • NavyBlues05

    The courts, what courts? The grand jury returned a no bill. A person displaying respiratory distress while bound and all they did was check for a carotid pulse. No one made any attempt to check for an obstructed airway. Any human of that size will suffer a poor exchange of O2/CO2 in a full prone position. And to contradict that asshat Rep, Peter King, you can speak while having difficulty breathing. It’s obvious from the disturbing restriction of air passing through his voice box while that over zealous cop had an arm across his throat. This particular cop has already cost the city money for his excessive behavior. There is no telling what other needless harm he’s inflicted.

  • Jim Reed

    John Adams did believe in God in a Unitarian sense. He did not believe in miracles, or hell, or the divinity of Jesus, and he and the founding fathers knew they needed to establish a nation that was not defined as a “Christian” nation. If John Adams was here today, he would probably be hated by traditional Christians just as much as any other Unitarian.

  • Andre M

    Nope.

  • Johnesmith77

    Actually, he did believe in miracles and divine intervention. But, I have never hated unitarians and I don’t think any other Christians I know do. It is certainly not acceptable to hate them.

  • Andre M

    That people like Johnesmith77 & Frank can’t entertain the idea of injustice here i think disqualifies them from reasonable discussion. They’re not worth attention. They wouldn’t know Jesus if he bit them on the ass.

  • Johnesmith77

    I can understand injustice, I just use rationalism and logic to not blindly follow what others tell us. I can’t speak for Frank though.

  • Johnesmith77

    Actually, the constitution is a product of those beliefs, and it makes bigots like me pretty happy to be living in a country where those beliefs laid the foundations of our government.

  • Johnesmith77

    By courts I meant grand jury, I was in a hurry to type and wasn’t really paying attention, but that is neither here or there.

  • Andre M

    Ah, you’re the one using rationalism and logic here! And you’re the one not blindly following the herd! I see now! Wow!

    Well, I guess we’ll just have to take your word on that one. I’ve usually found that people who say “I use logic!” are the most dense people around. It’s like they need to cover up their lack of argument by yelling about how logical they are.

  • Johnesmith77

    HA.. you’re the one who resorted to an ad hominem attack and simply disregarded people who don’t agree with you. If you say that we are can’t be reasonable, of course I am going to say that. Well, seeing how this is the internet, I guess you will have to take my word.

  • Andre M

    You have no idea what you’re talking about. “Ad hominem” indeed. But whatever keeps you warm at night.

  • NavyBlues05

    You do understand that prosecutors must have a close and intricate relationship with law enforcement, right? They will set up a grand jury to avoid indictment of their primary evidence gatherers. The one in Missouri was given the incorrect legal information by an assistant prosecutor. The same lady who began working the case with the cops immediately following the shooting of Michael Brown.

  • Liya

    You are forgetting that many religious beliefs are subject to change. Founding fathers would be shocked to learn that one day blacks, minorities and women will have equal rights.

  • Johnesmith77

    Ad hominem “means responding to arguments by attacking a person’s character, rather than to the content of their arguments” (Wiki)… seems like that’s right up your alley.

  • Liya

    You realize that religion is often deeply immoral? Many, many christian people ( I am also a Christian, btw) as recently as a few decades ago fought for segregation.

  • Liya

    shanda for the goyim as grannie used to say, Aravis. You fighting nasty Frankie? Frankie?!! that’s below u, bud

  • Johnesmith77

    Well, you believe the information is incorrect and I believe it is correct (and I believe the evidence points in that direction). Anyways, I trust the proceedings, they were presented with evidence from both sides and proved that the officer had no INTENT to kill the man. It is tragic that he died, yes, and I do believe the force was unjustified, but that is not what they were debating.

  • Andre M

    You’re an ignoramus and a hypocrite.

  • Johnesmith77

    In the early days they didn’t even let non-land holding whites vote. However, that really has nothing to do with religious beliefs and more to do with european thought at the time.

  • Johnesmith77

    You’re confusing religion with personal beliefs. If people use religion to further their causes, it does not mean that the religion is responsible. Nowhere in the Bible does it argue for segregation.

  • Liya

    I am not blaming the religion. Others are right, you don’t have a slightest idea how to have a debate.

  • Liya

    Andre is correct. You make no sense, possess no logic and have no ability to hold a productive debate. It’s a waste of time talking to you.

  • Liya

    Amen, Andre. Indeed he is. He is really good at playing completely dumb ( or maybe he actually is dumb ?) to further what he sees as his ‘goals’. Complete waste of time. Frankie’s twin brother.

  • Johnesmith77

    You’re joking, right? YOU can’t even have a conversation without calling the other person dumb. Guess what, you’re an ignorant fool who has no grasp on anything other than what people tell you.

  • Johnesmith77

    You literally just did…. how retarded are you?

  • Jim Reed

    It is also not acceptable to run the country according to the Bible. Most of the commandments are for things that we allow in America, like working on Saturday, or cursing God, or not honoring parents, or adultery. We just need to make sure Christians don’t establish any laws based on Christian principles.

  • Guest

    Great! I hope your son marries a black guy.

  • Johnesmith77

    Well, you should have been alive in 1788 to stop the country from using Christian beliefs/influence in its founding documents.

  • Johnesmith77

    I hope you marry a black transvestite.

  • Guest

    Sorry, I’m already ready married to the greatest guy in the world. But do give my best to your very chaste mother.

  • Jim Reed

    Christian beliefs are not in the founding documents. The Christian influence is there, but basically to keep the Christian mistakes from the colonies out of the national documents. This is things like there can be no requirement for religious belief for office. In the colonies this was common, different Christianities set up their colonies and required people submit to their Christianity. The founding fathers knew this was a disaster, and religion needs to be kept out of the real government.

  • Johnesmith77

    Why be married when you’re screwing everything that moves?

  • Guest

    You must be looking in a mirror! But at least I won’t have to spend eternity surrounded by whiny christian trash. What a peaceful and pleasant world it’s going to be after the rapture! Cum quickly, Lord Jebus!

  • joeyj1220

    Frankie… you can keep changing your name. The hate is the same

  • joeyj1220

    Nice to know Frankie is a homophobe AND a racist to boot. Nice personality combo there Frank.

  • Johnesmith77

    I agree, they did intend to keep the mistakes out. As for the test clause, that is the result of the practices of the english government which forbade anyone who was not part of the Church of England from serving in government. Since many of the colonies were founded for different denominations, it would have been a conflict of interest to have any religious clause that could exclude a baptist, methodist, Catholic, Jew, or likewise from serving.

  • Jim Reed

    There are some places where the Bible argues for genocide, sometimes even including domestic animals along with the population under attack.

  • Johnesmith77

    If you want to see what the world will be like after the theoretical rapture, go spend some time in the middle east or Africa and see how much you enjoy living with non-Christians.

  • Jim Reed

    So we have a government based on separation of church and state.

  • Johnesmith77

    Care to point out where?

  • Guest

    Nope. I’m a patriotic American so I’ll be staying right here. That’s not something you’re capable of understanding. I know – why don’t you move to Iran? They think and act a lot like you do.

  • Johnesmith77

    According to the constitution? We can’t have a law establishing religion or prohibiting people from expressing religion.

  • Johnesmith77

    But 70% of the country would be gone, you don’t think that would lead to chaos and anarchy?

  • Jim Reed

    That is the problem. The believers are working to set the stage for chaos and anarchy, or whatever might bring end times. They will cause increasing damage until they finally give up on the concept.

  • Jim Reed

    The old testament.

  • Frank6548

    See above. Repeat.

  • Frank6548

    Of course not. He resisted arrest.

  • Jim Reed

    It is very important for people to be free to express their religion. It gives us something to ridicule and show how foolish religion is. That is the best thing about America. Blasphemy is allowed.

  • Johnesmith77

    The material in the old testament which I believe you are referring to never encouraged/instructed genocide, but it was written after the fact of the matter discussing what (if you believe) were historical events.

  • Johnesmith77

    I don’t know where you are getting the idea that believers are trying to set the stage for the apocalypse…

  • Johnesmith77

    Well, you are assuming that being anti-Christian (or atheist) is a religion. I would think that people like you would be more apt to put the right to blaspheme under the freedom of speech rather than freedom of religion.

  • Jim Reed

    That’s true. Everything from the time of Moses and the Exodus and before, and claiming the land from previous inhabitants never actually happened. Israel started from the people living on that land starting to form a collective identity, and merging ancient traditions to form a religion.

  • Andre M

    Enough of your yammering already.

  • Jim Reed

    It starts by voting conservative. They seem to know if the Democrats are allowed to form a more progressive union, we will never get to end times.

  • Jim Reed

    Establishing a religion means laws against blasphemy.

  • NavyBlues05

    No intent yet he applied a banned take down technique to a man who posed no danger to anyone and wasn’t participating in any illegal activity at the time. The only thing he did, according to the video was disrupt a fight yet cops singled him out for restraint because his past. There was some sort of biased intent and no probable cause.

  • NavyBlues05

    He was not being placed under arrest. He was being restrained without any probable cause…if there was cause it was not stated before a banned take down was applied. Mr. Cut & Dried, you may also be susceptible to questionable & unconstitutional treatment by any law enforcement personnel.

  • NavyBlues05

    I repeat: so now you’re a legal expert.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    We are a liberal democracy, as are all the modern Western nations based on the Social Contract philosophy of the Enlightenment. That is not inconsistent with being a “constitutional republic.”

    It doesn’t matter whether they “meant” to kill the guy. They behaved in a reckless fashion, which resulted in his death. A massive lawsuit for sure, and very likely Involuntary Manslaughter.

    The fact that a grand jury was unwilling to indict means nothing other than the fact that it is almost impossible to indict a cop for anything in this country, a problem that has been widely recognized and discussed.

  • Liya

    why dont you just get out of here, stupid troll? What,sucking mens cocks is not enough fun for you anymore?

  • Liya

    scumbag, go away!!

  • Liya

    All you do is insulting others,you ignorant, stupid, nasty troll!

  • Liya

    Enjoying playing dumb, huh?

  • Frank6548

    The legal process was followed and there was not enough evidence for an indictment. Are you a legal expert to refute the legal process?

  • Frank6548

    I suggest you look at the facts before you continue to sound ignorant of them. He was breaking the law and the he resisted arrest.

  • cgosling

    It seems to me that fundamentalism goes hand in hand with racial prejudice. Those with less education are more likely to believe the bible condones racial separation and prejudice. Atheists, on the other hand, tend to be more educated and display less racial prejudice.

  • Gregory Peterson

    Pay no attention to Bayard Rustin and James Baldwin and others, right?

  • Eric

    I think it’s conclusive now, that you are the single biggest jackass on the internet. You are a walking, talking parody of a deluded fascist.

  • Eric

    Guess you are unfamiliar with, oh, say, Gen 11, Num. 15, Deut. 7 and 20, the entire book of Joshua, Ezra 9-10, eh? Methinks you are confusing your rhetoric with reality, here and about every comment you’ve posted.

  • Eric

    I’ll go you one step further. Moore is especially vocal about racism b/c he wants evangelicals to appear on the “right side of history” so they can deny the LGBT rights movement any connection to the the Civil Rights Movement. However sincere his stance might be, there is an undoubted political subtext he wants to exploit.

  • Eric

    “In fact, a police officer can’t even defend himself from a black person without a lynch mob being formed.”

    Congrats, you win the “Most Inappropriate Comment” and “Most Asinine Comment” awards of the day for this thoughtless gem. You can an extra prize for licking the boots of state authority with such unquestioning devotion, too.

  • Guest

    Nope. Getting rid of religious conservatives is the best thing that could ever possibly happen to America, and the world generally.

  • fiona64

    You’re fooling no one, Crankie Frankie.

  • fiona64

    That’s right; there was no reason to indict the white cop who murdered Eric Garner on camera. “No humans involved,” amiright, Frankie?

    BTW … the dry cleaner called. Your sheet and hood are ready for pickup.

  • fiona64

    a police officer can’t even defend himself from a black person without a lynch mob being formed

    Garner was not behaving in a threatening fashion. The officer was *not* defending himself. You need to pull your head into the 21st century, Klukker.

  • fiona64

    de Tocqueville was writing about his observations made nearly 200 years ago. And he was coming from a land where separation of church and state did not happen until the 20th Century. So, there’s that.

  • Frank6548

    Poor Fiona…. Facts are not your friend apparently.

  • Johnesmith77

    You’re retarded. Go stick your head in a beehive.

  • golden_valley

    In grand jury proceedings there is no both sides…just the prosecutor and perhaps the officer who many times has been on the same side as the prosecutor, after all they’re in the same business. There’s no lawyer there representing the deceased.

  • golden_valley

    And there were 5 officers present and involved in taking the man down. Looked like a mob of officers.

  • fiona64

    Hey, Frankie? How’s the search for a teenaged beard going?

  • Frank6548

    Childish as expected. Well done!

  • LegalizeLezMarriage

    Scratch one and you usually find the other. That or antisemitism.

  • LegalizeLezMarriage

    I’m curious too, have you found that 18 year old honey you’ve been trolling dating sites for?

  • fiona64

    Haven’t found your beard yet, eh? Poor Frankie. I guess you’ll just have to come out of the closet.

  • theron

    Frank enjoys walking along the Merrimac in the evenings and shouting at little children like Young Goodman Brown.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    So, the punishment for selling cigarettes illegally is being choked to death?

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    You think that the appropriate punishment for selling cigarettes illegally is being choked to death?

    You need a refresher in 6th grade Civics.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    Could you describe the logic that leads you to characterize the choking to death of an unarmed man, by the police, in response to what was, at most, the pettiest, lowest-level sort of crime, as justified?

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    The Southern Baptist movement was created to defend slavery. Its very founding was on racist grounds.

  • Frank6548

    He wasn’t choked to death, he resisted arrest and had severe health problems. But hey why let facts get in the way of your narrative?

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    I watched the video genius. He was choked to death.

    It’s called reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter. The fact that prosecutors/grand juries will almost never indict cops doesn’t change that fact. Just wait until the civil suit. That will tell the tale.

  • Frank6548

    You are welcome to remain ignorant in spite of the facts.

    You are right that will tell the tale. After a federal investigation no civil penalties will result.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    We’ll see.

    What you call “facts” I call “your interpretation of facts.”

  • Frank6548

    No the facts are the facts in this case.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    Frank, whether or not an arm around someone’s neck followed by death constitutes involuntary manslaughter or not is an *interpretation* of facts. The facts are just things like: arm around neck; death by asphyxiation; etc.

  • Frank6548

    Facts are: criminal in poor health approached by the police, arguing with the police, resisting arrest, put in non lethal carotid maneuver to subdue, suspect dies due to his health problems.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    “Criminal in poor health.”

    Lol. Okay. We’re done here.

  • Frank6548

    Yes you do run away from the facts.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    You’re cute. Boring, but cute.

    Clearly you get great fulfillment from arguing with anonymous strangers on the internet. I enjoy it too, but to a much more limited degree.

    So, you win! Enjoy that virtual trophy.

  • Frank6548

    Yes you cannot refute the facts. Got it!

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    Right! The trophy is all yours! Enjoy!

  • Frank6548

    See above.

  • Aravis Tarkheena

    Congratulations!

  • Whirlwitch

    You’ve never read the book of Daniel, apparently. Or Exodus. Or quite a bit of the New Testament. Some of the biblical lawbreakers you apparently feel deserve death are: Moses, his mother, and all the Hebrew slaves who fled with him, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Mary and Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus and Simon Peter.

    And that’s just off the top of my head. Seriously, if you’re going to yammer about the Bible, try reading it first.

  • Evidence? What evidence are you referring to? Do you mean the predictable response of a like-minded group of people to questionable jury instructions? Surely you jest! No-one is fooled by this charade. And may I point out that the City of New York was required to pay compensation to two families of victims harmed by the same toxic police officer.

  • Liya

    yeah he did – and deemed the honey as “way over the hill” 😉 Still searchin…

  • Liya

    where do they raise those, as well as the likes of Frankie? Is there a farm out there somewhere?

  • fiona64

    There is a guy named David Barton who calls himself a historian … an appellation that is pretty laughable to anyone who paid attention in high school civics class. This is his website; prepare to laugh a lot. http://www.wallbuilders.com/

  • Liya

    Thank you dearly 🙂 , he is something else! A few times I could have sworn that site was satire.

  • fiona64

    Sadly, it is not satire at all. :-/

  • cgosling

    Many churches welcome LGBT folks into their congregations but not into heaven until they give up their sinful practice.