The New Ground Zero on LGBT Rights and Religion

Houston. Atlanta. Big southern cities with liberal mayors facing a backlash from conservatives, claiming actions by those mayors pertaining to LGBT rights violate religious freedom.

In Houston last year, the controversy was over Mayor Annise Parker’s administration subpoenaing pastors in litigation over whether signatures for a voter referendum on an anti-discrimination ordinance were valid. The incident galvanized the religious right nationally, with activists turning a local issue into an overblown symbol of what’s left of the fight against LGBT equality: the claim that LGBT rights infringe on the religious freedom of the people who oppose those rights.

The Atlanta incident arises out of Mayor Kasim Reed’s firing of Fire Chief Kelvin Cochran, initially reported as stemming from Cochran’s anti-gay comments in his book, Who Told You That You Were Naked? In the book, Cochran wrote, “Uncleanness – whatever is opposite of purity; including sodomy, homosexuality, lesbianism, pederasty, bestiality, all other forms of sexual perversion,” and “Naked men refuse to give in, so they pursue sexual fulfillment through multiple partners, with the opposite sex, the same sex, and sex outside of marriage and many other vile, vulgar and inappropriate ways which defile their body – temple and dishonor God.”

Reed said the firing wasn’t an issue of religious freedom or free speech, but rather one of judgment. Indeed an internal report released to the media reveals that Reed took action not because of the content of Cochran’s book per se, or even because of how his views affected his treatment of LGBT employees (apparently not negatively), but because he had written and distributed the book without proper clearance. According to WGCL:

The announcement of Cochran’s firing comes after he was suspended for one month without pay after publishing the book that Reed said contained, “disturbing sentiments about the LGBT community.”

Reed listed among the reasons motivating his decision the fact that Cochran wrote a book with inflammatory language without asking permission from him and that he spoke out during the investigation.

Reed stressed that this was not about Cochran’s religious beliefs, but about the judgment to publish a book that could open the City of Atlanta to lawsuits without discussing it with senior leadership.

Reed also asked people to stop calling his home and asking for Cochran to be reinstated. He said people have been calling him and calling him names, like “Antichrist.”

Cochran did speak with the city’s ethics advisor on multiple occasions about the book, Reed said. He added that she advised him not to publish it.

If calling the mayor at home and calling him the Antichrist seems extreme, check out Erick Erickson, who proclaimed, “Je suis Kelvin Cochran,” and compared Cochran to the murdered Charlie Hebdo journalists. (See, they both published something that offended “terrorists.”) Franklin Graham also came to Cochran’s defense, calling him “a fearless man of great faith,” and accusing the LGBT community of “want[ing] us to cower in the face of their threats to the livelihoods of believers.”

These are not local incidents anymore. They are driving religious advocacy as activists portray them as evidence of a broader claim for which they have sparse evidence: discrimination against Christians.

Faith-Driven Consumer, which has generated a petition calling for the fire chief’s reinstatement, calls Cochran’s firing “un-American” and evidence of “intolerance, bigotry and discrimination.”

Charisma columnist Michael Brown predicts that in 2015 “the gay revolution will continue to overplay its hand,” arguing that “as gay activists win more and more battles in the courts and the society, that will actually work against them, and their goals will continue to become more and more extreme.”

Brown is not clear what those “extreme” goals are, although the implication by Cochran’s defenders is that LGBT rights advocates aim to silence and exclude their opponents from public life on religious grounds. But Cochran’s rights as a citizen to speak, to evangelize, to pontificate, have limits in the context of his responsibilities as an official sworn to uphold the public trust, and to treat all members of his community equally. And his religious views aren’t entitled to special treatment because they involve his views on sexuality — surely there are “religious” views that would never be tolerated for a moment if expressed by a public official.

Cochran’s defenders are trying to blur the line between his right to hold private views and his duties as a public official, to make his private beliefs, publicly expressed, absolutely protected regardless of their context or impact. It’s that line — not the right to marry, or the right to speak, or the right to practice religion — between the private and the workplace that will animate anti-LGBT activism, unless or until fatigue sets in.

116 Comments

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Instead of firing the Fire Cheif – it sounds like they need to send him to a course on human sexuality – it appears as if he doesn’t know the first thing about homosexuals.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Have we been missing the big picture by seeing everything as a battle of conservative vs. progressive? Maybe the bigger battle will end up being conservative vs. conservative.

  • gregp@unm.edu' Gregory Peterson says:

    The country has had 50 years of experience with anti-discrimination law, religion and protected classes, even longer in my state of New Mexico, yet the religious right is acting like this is all new and controversial.

    Which means they sort of sound like they’re getting their arguments for Christian privilege from old white Citizens’ Council newsletters. Some have even defined “race” in a racist way so as to justify discrimination against a multi-ethnic minority group. http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1224

  • gregp@unm.edu' Gregory Peterson says:

    I wonder what Mr. Cochran wrote about women and non-Christians in his book.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I think they are feeling the pressure of the culture wars not going well. They sense it will only get worse, so they are trying different things to see if they can find something that might restore the market share they are losing. Unfortunately for them, anything they try will probably just accelerate the loses.

  • vikingknife@bellsouth.net' dotherightthink says:

    I hope all the gays die soon…they are scum..my opinion…THATS RIGHT MY OPINION…die horribly from AIDS in a festering pool of feces you filthy cock eaters

  • vikingknife@bellsouth.net' dotherightthink says:

    Gays are vindictive filthy people in my opinion…hope you like AIDS…eat some cock like mommy told you now

  • vikingknife@bellsouth.net' dotherightthink says:

    I didn’t know you needed special rights for men to suck men’s cocks, or women to jam each other with dildos…Its not a religion its a sexual PREFERENCE…scum all of you

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    Does anyone else think discussions on all the issues is quieting down? I think it is because religion is revealing itself to be the enemy of mankind on practically everything. Conservative religion is a total disaster, and those who might have wanted to argue for progressive religion are finding less room to maneuver, so perhaps they are less likely to continue to make their case. About all you can say right now is the world needs to pay more attention to the concept of non-belief, and progressive humanistic solutions to the problems facing the world. You can still make a case for that, but religion overall is turning into such a disaster you would have a hard time arguing for anything else.

  • joerogers67@gmail.com' joeyj1220 says:

    I have no problem with his firing. He was hawking his book to those under him (imagine trying to tell your boss that his book sucks), created a hostile work place, and then defied his managers by going to the public and speaking about it

  • joerogers67@gmail.com' joeyj1220 says:

    you seem nice

  • joerogers67@gmail.com' joeyj1220 says:

    “and they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes they will know we are Christians by our love”

  • allahalmighty@yahoo.com' Allah says:

    It’s too bad the methwhore you dropped out of didn’t get an abortion. Hope you’re in heaven soon!

  • allahalmighty@yahoo.com' Allah says:

    I can’t tell you how happy I am to know that I won’t have to spend eternity surrounded by scum like you.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Keep speaking the truth chief! Staying true to the truth of God and speaking it boldly is more important than any job. God will provide for you.

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    “Oh please the histrionic hyperbole is childish.” – Frank6548

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Can’t handle the truth eh?

  • aravistarkheena2@gmail.com' Aravis Tarkheena says:

    My daughter is having her Bat-Mitzvah in a few months. Our synagogue just hired a new Rabbi and is nearing it’s 120th anniversary. Next week, I will be presiding over two conversions, as part of our synagogue’s Beit Din.

    I’m not aware of our having “less room in which to maneuver.” Could you explain what you mean?

  • wade_downe@hotmail.co.uk' Halou says:

    In that case they’ll call it indoctrination reeducation camps and forced conversions, call gay people 21st century Hitlers, scream out about “Je Suis Bigot” and how gay people need to be stopped as if they were a rainbow ISIS.
    Their behavior would be no different either way.

  • wade_downe@hotmail.co.uk' Halou says:

    It’s only going quiet because these people are lining up to whinge about another school child whose parents wanted to make their entire class stay behind after school hours to hear the child verbatim quote chapters of Ezekiel, or some other such rubbish.

  • alencon13@hotmail.com' Alencon says:

    “Cochran did speak with the city’s ethics advisor on multiple occasions about the book, Reed said. He added that she advised him not to publish it.”

    That’s different from what I originally read. I believe Cochran claimed that he had checked with the ethics department and had received no “pushback” as he phrased it.

    I have no problem with a mayor firing an appointee that he’s afraid is going to get him or the city into trouble but I’m wondering if there was a better way to handle the whole affair.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    It appears that you, Frank6548, cannot handle the truth, actually. Your religious beliefs apply to nobody except you. From what I read, the fire chief was speaking from ignorance and bigotry, rather than the truth, and his giving many of his subordinates a copy of his hateful scree calls into question his impartiality with respect to his job and his handling of his subordinates.

  • ollamhdrab@gmail.com' Friday says:

    Actually the media’s not covering his anti-Semitic and generally anti-non-Christian claims in that book much at all.

  • stillgoodtotalk@gmail.com' David says:

    The difference between the gaystapo and the murders in Paris is simply a matter of methods, the end goal is the same to silence the opposition. Be prepared for the backlash, many are tired of the LGBT bulldozer. When the fight for LGBT rights was about equality it was worth supporting, now it’s about domination and destined ultimately to fail

  • thurmaneric@gmail.com' Eric says:

    “It’s that line — not the right to marry, or the right to speak, or the right to practice religion — between the private and the workplace that will animate anti-LGBT activism, unless or until fatigue sets in.”

    Gonna be a bit then.

  • thurmaneric@gmail.com' Eric says:

    “Be prepared for the backlash, many are tired of the LGBT bulldozer.”

    Nice way to couch your threat as standing your ground. Ugh.

  • thurmaneric@gmail.com' Eric says:

    SMDH!! You, Frank, he’s quoting YOU!! You don’t recognize your own freaking word vomit when it’s thrown back?! How dimwitted are you??

  • pennyjane4@yahoo.com' pennyjane says:

    frank is…well….not the sharpest tool in the shed, eric. he’s one of those who calls himself a christian without having the foggiest notion of Christ. he’s really a charter member of the church of the dimwitted bigot.

  • buddy52901@aol.com' nowaRINO says:

    “Big southern cities with liberal mayors facing a backlash from conservatives,” who long ago abandoned the cities to live in the suburbs and exurbs, but still work in the cities. They still think they can control the politics in an area where they cannot vote.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    This was my attempt to understand things and put things in perspective.

    I think the conservative world has been a problem in almost every possible way, and in the last couple months they seem to be moving faster to increase the insanity level on all fronts. This might be our area of agreement.

    Progressive religion is a more interesting area to consider. It is a reaction to conservative religion, and makes the statement, if the world needs religion, it can be so much better than the direction conservatives are taking it.

    They would like to think that, but they may have misjudged the world. People are growing tired of the old religious myths that are so full of such potential damage to people and the world, and they are more rejecting those beliefs. Do they feel like they need to find a safer religion, one where they don’t have to believe any of those things? Or do they feel they might now be able to do better without a religion? There is still a lot of publicity hoping to keep people hooked on religion at some level, but I think the concept of just doing without religion might win in the end.

    Consider the case of modern American progressive Reform Judaism. It is pretty indignificant because the numbers are so small and it is not even evangelical. Could they make a strong case for why progressive Judaism is better than the other progressive religions? I don’t think they could, because if they ever did, that would make them the same as all the other progressive religions, and open to questions about their case, and religions don’t do well with questions unless the questions are controlled.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I meant the discussions were quieting down here on RD. But then our discussions seem to ebb and flow as the Mormons come and go. I actually only posted that because we hadn’t heard from Aravis in a while, and I wondered if he would answer.

  • johnruffdc@yahoo.com' John Ruff says:

    That’s right little boy! You haven’t seen anything yet. Me and my gay boys are gonna cram our agenda down your warm throat so hard and long that you’re gonna gag like a little girl.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Nowhere near as you are that’s one thing for sure. Can’t keep up can you?

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Aww how cute. Ineffective but cute.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    The fire chiefs words are the truth of God which will never change no matter how hard you may try.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    It was a failure before it was even started. There is zero possibility that anyone can change the truth that all homosexual behavior is sinful. Always was and always will be.

  • pennyjane4@yahoo.com' pennyjane says:

    sorry, frank……unlike you i have a life off line, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, caring for the sick…..stuff you wouldn’t understand…..stuff christians do while trolls troll.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Wow what a pitiful reponse. As if you know what I do or that I have to justify anything to you. Very telling.

  • pennyjane4@yahoo.com' pennyjane says:

    frank….it’s easy to know what you do…..sit around on the computer trolling all day, every day. running your mouth about how wonderful you are. you do not have time to actually do anything at all. you are a weak, pathetic little critter with no redeeming qualities….get off your fat, selfish little butt and do something, then you can talk about it.

  • aravistarkheena2@gmail.com' Aravis Tarkheena says:

    Reform Judaism is small, because Judaism is small. This is what happens when you are subjected to an extermination campaign.

    That said, Reform Judaism is the largest denomination of Judaism in the US.

    I have no idea why any Reform Jew would be interested in trying to “make a case for why progressive Judaism is better than the other progressive religions.” Judaism, as a whole, does not proselytize. We have no interest in convincing other people that their religions are worse than ours.

    Still not seeing what this whole “less room to maneuver” is about.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    The less room to maneuver doesn’t apply to Reform Judaism because they aren’t trying to make the case to others for their religion, and would have no interest in doing that. It applies more to progressive Christianity. There the problem is what is progressive Christianity? What do they believe? They can’t get into it because that would just lead to problems. That is what I mean by less room to maneuver. Conservative Christianity has things just too messed up. Whatever way progressive Christianity might have some kind of agreement with conservative Christianity will turn into a problem. Whatever way progressive Christianity is like progressive Humanism just shows there is no actual progressive Christianity, it is just a kind of place holder as Christianity slowly makes its exit.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    We do know a couple other things about Frank too: He’s a Catholic in his 50s who is single and looking for someone 18-35 to marry.

  • pennyjane4@yahoo.com' pennyjane says:

    catholic…..it figures. the pope was infallible until one started spouting off like a follower of Jesus…..then they became quite fallible.

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    “The fire chiefs words are the truth of God which will never change no matter how hard you may try.” – Frank6548

    Except your “truth of god” does change, Frank6548. Unless you are telling me that you don’t eat shellfish, shave, or wear mixed-fabric material. If so, then you are a liar, hypocrite, or both.

    Que the weasel-wording in 3, 2, 1….

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    Is not praying towards Mecca 5 times a day a sin? Is eating pork a sin? Is eating beef a sin? If you are saying “no”, then you are trying to claim that you are not subject to the same rules that you want to inflict onto others. You seem to want other people to be bound by your views of what is and is not “sinful”, but you are not willing to be bound by their rules. Each of those items at the beginning of the paragraph are “sins” according to some religion, sect, or denomination.

    A “sin” only exists within the belief structure of the person that thinks that it is a sin. Change the belief structure, and you change whether or not something is or is not a sin. This means that when someone talks about whether or not something is a “sin”, they are doing nothing more than stating their opinion, an opinion that does not apply to anyone else.

    There is no difference whatsoever between the behaviors of homosexuals and heterosexuals. Everything that homosexuals do with their loved ones is also done by many, many times more heterosexuals. Therefore, it is obvious that you do not think that the behavior is a “sin” since you are not objecting to the same behaviors when performed by heterosexuals, but rather you are objecting to whom they are romantically and sexually attracted to. And that is none of your business as long as we are talking about mutually consenting adults.

    Keep something else in mind as well. Not all denominations of Christianity view homosexuality as a sin, nor do they all prohibit same sex marriages in their places of worship.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    No, the fire chief’s words are his opinions based on his beliefs. They are not the truth at all. The FC and you are both engaging in a number of logical fallacies. Appeal to authority, appeal to antiquity, appeal to belief, and others.

    Nobody is bound by your or his beliefs except each of you. When you try to claim that your personal opinions are “the truth of God”, I know that hey are not likely the truth at all since they are not likely to correspond to objective reality. You are trying to claim that I am bound by your beliefs, when I am not and I know that I am not.

    The FC is a public official, and is in charge of a department with a diverse set of employees. They follow many belief systems as well as none at all. By publishing his book, and then handing them out to his employees, especially when the books is so factually incorrect and filled with ignorant and hateful screeds, his judgement and impartiality is called into question. How will he handle promotions and discipline of those who hold beliefs that are different than his? What about homosexuals under his command? And so on. Every decision and many non-decisions of his would have been called into question.

    The mayor of Atlanta did the right thing. The FC was first given an administrative leave without pay because of the questions about his judgement abilities, and when he started yapping it up to the pundits and slandering his boss, the boss fired him.

    The First Amendment does give you the right to say what you want, and print what you want. However, you are still subject to the consequences of your actions.

  • np453@yahoo.com' NancyP says:

    On a BBS many eons ago, once the discussion descended to a certain level, the regulars would start swapping recipes for troll soup, troll chili, troll stew…..

    The fire chief put the city at risk of suit based on the Atlanta non-discrimination law. He’s not supposed to be handing out defamatory material on the city’s clock to his direct subordinates. Allowances and counseling could be made for a lower level employee, but an executive is required to know basic protocols for dealing with employees. He was told to knock it off by the mayor, who no doubt would have been happy if the fire chief shut his non-fire-fighting piehole and laid low for a while so people could forget. Fire chief decided to defy the mayor and the mayor fired his insubordinate a**. Fire chief could have had all the free speech he wanted, without penalty, if he hadn’t insisted on bringing his church stuff to work. He could have self-published and sold it on Amazon, omitting his current status as fire chief (which has zip to do with evangelization). Fire chief could have eschewed a management position and proselytized to his same-rank fire-fighters, who would be perfectly able to tell him to quit pestering them (and report him to management if he got seriously out of hand).

  • stillgoodtotalk@gmail.com' David says:

    you sure it’s big enough to gag me?

  • stillgoodtotalk@gmail.com' David says:

    no threat at all, there are consequences for actions, plan and simple

  • johnruffdc@yahoo.com' John Ruff says:

    Oh yeah.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Gods truth cannot be changed. You may not like it but the fire chief was speaking the truth of God.

    You and everyone are bound by Gods truth. No getting around that.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Homosexual behavior will always be a sin. It doesn’t matter what anyone does or says they believe. It won’t change that eternal truth. Ever.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    I’d suggest studying Levitical laws before you expose your ignorance about them. How embarrassing for you. That line of argument has been thoroughly dismantled.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Fools cannot help but expose themselves. Well done!

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    Ah…so you choose to show yourself as both a liar and a hypocrite. Good to know. It will serve you well keeping the cognitive dissonance at bay.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    See above. Your ignorance of the truth doesn’t negate it. Sad that some refuse to learn because it challenges the way they choose to live. So sad.

  • truktyre@hotmail.com' Craptacular says:

    I’m just the mirror, Frank6548. If you don’t like what you see, don’t blame me.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    And expected non answer verifying ignorance. Good job!

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    You did not answer my questions at the start of my previous post. Perhaps because you cannot face the fact that you do not believe in freedom of religion.

    Prove that it is a sin according to MY beliefs, not yours. And no, you do not get to know what my beliefs are.

    Your “eternal truth” is nothing more than your ignorant and hateful opinion. Your claim that “homosexual behavior”, whatever that is since homosexual behavior is the same as heterosexual behavior, is a sin is also nothing more than your hateful opinion. Your “eternal truth” changes as soon as the belief structure that you believe in changes, which means as soon as someone else is asked that question.

    You seem to arrogantly believe that your personal beliefs apply to everyone else, yet nobody else can hold you to their beliefs. In this, you are only half right, your personal beliefs do not apply to anyone else and nobody else is subject to them.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    “Gods[sic] truth” is nothing more than the opinion of the person making the claim, phrased in such a manner as to attempt (unsuccessfully by you) to keep that opinion from being examined objectively, and to hide the fact that the opinion is likely irrational and the person cannot support that opinion with facts.

    “Gods[sic] truth” changes all the time since it is nothing more than the speaker’s opinion of his or her mythology, and is a means of projecting their biases and bigotries in a manner such that they hope it will not be questioned.

    All you have are logical fallacies. You have no truth, no facts, and no reasoned argument.

    That fire chief spoke and wrote no “truth”, but rather expressed his personal opinions, ignorant and bigoted as they were, in a manner and forum which put his job at risk, especially since he was a public servant. He then compounded his problems and got what he deserved.

    I am not bound by your superstitions, mythology, hatred, irrationality, or your opinion.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    And you are one of the biggest fools here, as can be seen from your posts. Penny Jane is basing her statements on what the current Pope has said and done since he was elevated, and what the reaction to it has been form the Catholic hierarchy. And from what I have seen and read on the subject, she is spot on in her analysis.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    How cute. Clueless but cute. Both of you.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    You are not bound by absolute truth either it seems. So very sad.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    There is nothing you can do, no amount of whining, brow beating, frustration, anger or anything, to change the absolute truths of God. One being that all homosexual behavior is sinful and marriage is man plus woman. Nothing, ever. Best accept it while you can.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    You have no clue as to what the “truth” is. All you are doing is spouting off your personal opinions and claiming that it is the “absolute truth” because you cannot support your claims objectively and intelligently.

    You have lost. You have been called out on your techniques and you have been shown wanting repeatedly. You have nothing to say except that you cannot stand that people are not subject to your hateful and ignorant beliefs.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    You are the only one that is clueless here. You have shown yourself to be one and a fool time and time again. That is why you lose every argument you walk in to.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    And again you ran from the challenge given to you. You cannot prove that homosexuality is a sin according to my beliefs.

    I know that I cannot change your homophobic, ignorant, hateful opinion. You have shown that you are not subject to or interesting in logic, reasoning, the facts, the truth, compassion, civility, or equality. That was obvious from the start.

    The actual truth is that you have nothing truthful to support your hateful opinions. Calling your personal opinions “the absolute truth of God” does not change the fact that they are your personal opinions and nothing more. Your claims, however, show your arrogance, ignorance, dishonesty, and the fact that you are divorced from reality.

    Homosexuality is not sinful if the homosexuals do not accept it as being sinful. Your opinion in that matter does not change the truth since nobody else besides you is subject to your beliefs and your religion. Marriage is the legal joining of two consenting adults into a familial relationship where one did not exist before, and it can be a man and a woman, two men, or two women. Your opinion does not change that FACT, nor does it change the fact that marriage predates the oldest laws we know of, which are the Codes of Hammurabi, and certainly predates your deity and religion.

    There is no reason why I should accept your misogyny, homophobia, hatred, irrationality, and close mindedness. Your beliefs are examples of much that is wrong with the world today, and I would rather work to make the world a better place that return it to the Dark Ages.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    What challenge? There is no question homosexual behavior is sinful. You don’t have to accept or agree for truth to be and remain truth. Nothing you can’t do to change that.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Yeah homosexual behavior was, is and will always be sinful. Yeah I lose…
    :rolleyes.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    How embarrassing for you. So sad.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Still proving how clueless you are. Pitiful.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    Why should I be embarrassed? I am not the ignorant, arrogant, irrational, bible-thumper that thinks that the voices in his head should apply to everyone, or that believes a Bronze Age mythology.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    You do lose since homosexuality is not a sin if the person who is a homosexual does not believe it to be a sin. Your definition of what is and is not a sin does not apply to anyone except you.

    And since homosexuals engage in the same behavior that heterosexuals do, that means that you think that heterosexual behavior is a sin as well. So you lose no matter what.

    You cannot accept or deal with reality. That must be why you retreat into your fantasy where you don’t have to defend your opinions in an intelligent and rational manner.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    The challenge was to prove according to MY beliefs, not yours, that homosexuality is sinful. You have spouted nothing but your beliefs, which do not apply to anyone else.

    I have already done something about it. I have rejected your irrational and hateful beliefs that say that the espouse bigotry and seek to relegate a class of people to be second class citizens with abbreviated rights for no intelligent reason at all.

    You have shown that you cannot accept that other people have different beliefs than you, and that your beliefs have no hold over them and do not apply to them. The only thing that makes you better than the Taliban and al Queada is that, to the best of my knowledge, you have not been violent in enforcing your opinions yet.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Gods truth trumps anything you might believe to be true. There is nothing you can do to change it. You don’t have to accept it or believe it for it to remain true. Your continued ignorance is something to be pitied. Sad.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    It’s irrelevant to truth is some ignorant of it believe a lie. Homosexual behavior will always be a sin for all of humanity. No changing that.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    It’s a matter of public record, Frank.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Yup still clueless as usual. Pitiful.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Stop skeeving on the young women, Frank. Gross old man.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Frankie here is one of the two biggest closet-cases I’ve ever met on the ‘net. Just so you know.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    I’d suggest studying Levitical laws before you expose your ignorance about them.

    Sweetie, your entire self-loathing, homophobic rant is *based* in Levitical law. Don’t cherry-pick; you are either following them, or you aren’t. No more ShrimpFest at Red Lobster for you …

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    … because he needs a beard. 😉

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    Translation: You cannot support your claims. You cannot prove that homosexuality is a sin according to my beliefs. You just think that I am bound by your ignorant and hateful beliefs and opinions, and all you have are transparent logical fallacies to support yourself.

    I have shown that I am not the one that is ignorant here. All you have done is show that you are ignorant, arrogant, close-minded, and a bigot. All you do is demand that everyone submit to your hateful opinions and beliefs, and you cannot accept that whatever you demand of other people can also be demanded of you because of the First Amendment and the 14th Amendment. (Freedom of religion/conscious and Equal Rights and Protections under the law)

    Calling your opinions “Gods truth” in an attempt to keep them from being examined has again failed miserably. You have nothing but hatred and lies on your side, and you have little acquaintance with the objective truth. You have nothing intelligent to say, and only hatred, ignorance, and arrogance to offer. Your offer is rejected as not meeting the necessary criteria of being objectively factual, reasonable, or logical.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    I figured that out a long time ago. I was first introduced to these kinds of groups back in college when it was still Usenet.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Of course I can prove it. God tell us so. No doubt about it.

    You just want to live your own way, which is your choice no matter how foolish it is. If you want to live against the Will of God you can. It’s a pitiful choice but go for it. I feel sorry for you.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Poor Fiona, still as ignorant as ever. Best learn about Levitical Law so people stop pitying you for your continued ignorance. How embarrassing for you.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Sweetie, how much of the Bible have you read in the original language again?

    Oh, yeah. ZERO. Do not make me pull out my exegesis of your “clobber verses” again, dearie, because you will just get your closet-case feelings hurt.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Oh dear. You are like a petulant teenager without wisdom or knowledge, thinking they are right in the face of the truth contradicting them.

    Isn’t it time you grow up?

    How embarrassing.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Yes, Frankie-poo. Your ignorance is an embarrassment. I see that I’m going to have to school you again. How sad.

    Let me briefly point out that there is no word in biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, or koine Greek for homosexual or homosexuality (the OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the NT in koine Greek). The ancient Jews and Greeks had conceptions of gender and sexual acts, but not what modern psychology calls sexual orientation. The word homosexual in English was not coined until the end of the 19th century and the notion of sexual orientation is largely a 20th century psychoanalytic construct. The word “homosexual” was first used in an English translation of the Bible, the Revised Standard Version, in 1948 (the passage was 1st Corinthians 6:9). If Greek and Hebrew had no words for homosexual, and the English word was not introduced into the text of the Bible until 1948, I think that some revision of thought is in order.

    Let’s review the texts about which you ask. Here is a transliterated text of the Hebrew into English characters:

    The Hebrew texts read: Leviticus 18:22 v’t-zkr l’ tskb mskby ‘sh tvjbh hv’.
    Leviticus 20:13 v’ys ‘sr yskb ‘t-zkr mskby ‘sh tvjbh jsv snyhm mvt yvmtv dmyhm bm.
    In the 3rd century BC, the Greek Ptolemys in Alexandria Egypt commissioned a Greek translation of OT from Hebrew into Greek. Some 72 Greek-speaking Jewish scholars are said to have collaborated on it; it is consequently called the Septuagint (“Seventy”). It was widely used throughout the Mediterranean since Greek was the international language of the time. The Greek texts from the Septuagint read: Leviticus18:22 kai meta arsenoV ou koimhqhsh koithn gunaikoV bdelugma gar estin
    Leviticus 20:13 kai oV an koimhqh meta arsenoV koithn gunaikoV bdelugma epoihsan amfoteroi qanatousqwsan enocoi eisin

    The King James Bible was a translation of the entire Bible into English in 1611. The translators made use of many earlier translations of the Bible, including the Latin Vulgate Bible used by the Catholic Church. The texts in the KJV read: LEV 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
    LEV 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    These two passages are badly misunderstood, particularly because of the inaccurate and inexact use of “abomination” in English to translate a much more particular word in the original Hebrew. Both say essentially the same thing in Hebrew and Greek (the Septuagint). The verb and the direct object are cognates (a so-called cognate accusative). The root for both the verb and the object can mean several different things. The verb has possible meanings of “going to sleep, going to bed, having sex.” The object of the verb means “sleep, bed, sex” To translate literally one has several alternatives: “Do not sleep the sleep; do not lay the laying; do not engage in sex with the sexuality,” etc. The object is then modified by a word meaning “of a woman, female, feminine.” One ends up with the difficult phrase “Do not sleep the sleep of a woman with a man, do not lay the laying of a woman with a man, etc.” Jewish moralists for over a millennium have debated exactly constitutes “the sleep of a woman” and who is technically a “man” in the situation.

    No one in the time of Moses or Christ ever used the word “abomination.” It is a modern English word and English as we know it did not exist in Biblical times. “Abomination” is correct only in the Elizabethan sense of the word which is borrowed from Latin “abominatio.” The root is omin- which means “omen.” The prefix “ab” means away. Thus the word means to turn away from something because it is ill-omened or portentous. But what about the original text in Hebrew?

    Various things in Leviticus are called an “abomination.” Some are what we would consider moral issues (incest), but others are manifestly about health and hygiene (avoiding pork, shell fish, brackish water). Some are matters of cleanliness (touching dead snakes, sleeping with a woman during menstruation). Others still are issues of ethnicity and religious identity (cutting of hair and beard, etc.). The word “abomination” translates the Hebrew word “toevah” which really means something like “impure or unclean for the purposes of ritual” (i.e. something that could unfavorably affect sacrifices, auspices, etc.). It is not a blanket denunciation of all homosexuals any more than it is a denunciation of all women by saying that they are also considered “toevah” during menstruation. This is further underscored by one of the oldest most authoritative translations of the Old Testament–the Septuagint.

    Beginning in the 3rd century BCE, Greek speaking Jewish scholars translated the Old Testament into Greek. The Greek language distinguishes between violations of morality and justice (anomia) and infringements of ritual purity (bdelugma). In Leviticus 18:22, the activity is called a bdelugma making it an issue of ritual purity rather than one of general morality. The word “toevah” is used throughout the Old Testament to designate those Jewish sins which involve ethnic contamination or idolatry and very frequently occur as part of the stock phrase “toevah ha-goyim,””the uncleanness of the Gentiles” (2 Kings 16:3). It is often used in condemnations of temple prostitution (1 Kings 14:24–“sodomite” in the KJV is a mistranslation for the Hebrew “kadash” or temple prostitute). Often it simply means idol. The severity of the punishment (death), then, would seem to arise from the association of the act with idolatry and paganism. The law is one that preserves the ethnic and religious identity of the Jews and is backed by the first few exhortations of the Ten Commandments.
    Since there is no biblical word for homosexual, the passages in Leviticus are problematic but refer to ritual purity as opposed to universal morality, there is no intrensic contradiction between being gay and a Christian.

    P.S. The books of the Bible were not collected into one literary compendium until the 4th century CE at the Council of Nicea. The word Bible comes from Greek biblia meaning books (in the plural). The books were codified by a vote of the committee, and what books were to be include were a matter of dispute by different nominations into the 18th century. The Roman emperor Constantine employed St. Jerome to translate the collected books into Latin. The original language texts are nonetheless still available. You can see them online at http://unbound.biola.edu/.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Trotting out debunked and demolished p argue nets is embarrassing for you. Well done!

    A simple Google search could show a child how ignorant and unsupported those opinions are.

    But hey nice copy and paste lol.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    If my argument has been debunked, than you could show me a citation for that, right?

    Oh, wait … you can’t. Because you don’t know the first thing about Biblical linguistics, and are just pissed off at how very far wrong you are.

    And yes, sweetie … I keep the file ready for use when idiots lie you rear their heads.

    Poor closet-case.

  • sebree@infionline.net' MarkSebree says:

    Fine. Prove that Zeus said anything about homosexuality.

    There is plenty of doubt about it since there is no objective evidence that any deity exists. The various books of the Bible were written by men. They were written to record the beliefs, laws, and stories of their people of there time. They were written to keep those in power in power, and those that were subjugated subjugated. These stories have been translated multiple times, and the Catholic Church made a decision about 1600 years ago which stories to keep and which to toss out. And that does not even take into account the political meddling that went into some of the translations like the King James version. All these items are historical facts, and they all cast doubt on your book of mythology.

    I live my life my own way because it is the right way for me. There is nothing foolish about living in reality rather than someone else’s fantasy. I have no problem with living against your delusions because your delusions and opinions do not apply to anyone else except you. And the only one that you should feel sorry for is yourself since you refuse to accept and live in the real world, and since you cannot make other people live according to your whims.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Pitiful.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Poor Fiona. Keeping something that has been proven incorrect on file is kinda pitiful isn’t it? Oh well stay ignorant. That’s your choice.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    And your citation that the research is incorrect is where?

    Oh, yeah. Your imagination. Because the research is correct. It’s not my fault you’re too stupid to understand it.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Poor Fiona. A child could do a simple search and see how wrong your “facts” are.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    If it’s so simple, Frankie, how come you can’t do it?

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    I did a long item ago and abandoned the premise of your copy and paste as true as its not supported.

    But hey keep embarssingly yourself.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Sorry, I must have missed it. If it’s so simple, you can do it again, right? RIGHT?

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Search for DeYoungs the Meaning of Arsenokoitai. But you’ve already proven you are incapable of accepting the truth on this issue so I expect you will continue in your willful ignorance.

    Read Robert Gagnon. He thoroughly and authoritatively dismantles any argument that tries to suggest that homosexual behavior is not sinful. Slam dunk. Game over.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Nope, sorry. I’m not doing your homework for you. You either cough up the citations that prove 100 percent of my exegesis wrong, or admit that you’re a liar.

  • GHeraved4623@dayrep.com' Frank6549 says:

    Since DeYoung and Robert Gagnon completely and thoroughly dismantle your opinions all you can do is bloviate as expected. It would be funny if it weren’t so pitiful.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Non-responsive. Put up or shut up. I’m not doing your homework for you, little closet-case.

  • Hilewhousels@dayrep.com' Frank6550 says:

    DeYoung and Gagnon have efficiently and unequivocally debunked your assertions. Try again.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Non-responsive. Put up or shut up.

  • Hilewhousels@dayrep.com' Frank6550 says:

    It’s there for all to see. Poor Fiona, she’s like a passenger on the titanic saying, hey we aren’t gonna sink, I’m right. Pitiful.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Non-responsive. Put up or shut up.

  • polyearp2@gmail.com' Laurence Charles Ringo says:

    Let me ask you a question, MarkSebree…If I stormed into your house and murdered your family, would I have sinned against you? What if I claimed at my trial (Provided I was even caught.) that I was exercising my personal beliefs, that it is moral to kill other human beings? If you say no, I’m wrong, I’m wrong according to who? You? Why?

  • polyearp2@gmail.com' Laurence Charles Ringo says:

    Hmmm…You’re pretty knowledgeable, fiona64, something I generally admire in God’s people. However, there is a caveat…Don’t call dude”frankie-poo”.That’s not nice, and we never want to sink to an ill-informed person’s level, right? Also, in your haste to put this individual in his place, you made an error.
    It was Pope Damasus I who commissioned Jerome to begin compilation of the Latin Vulgate, beginning with the Gospels, in 382 A.D.; Constantine the Great died May 22,337 A.D., so…your dating is just a tad off.Keep up the good work, and exercise restraint in dealing with people like Frank, O.K? —The main thing: Pray for him. PEACE IN CHRIST.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    When Frank stops calling me a murderer for being pro-choice, and stops calling me ignorant when I clearly have facts in hand, I promise I’ll stop referring to him as Cranky Frankie or Frankie-poo. I feel no particular need to respect those who have no desire to respect me.

  • Hilewhousels@dayrep.com' Frank6550 says:

    Just because you got owned by Gagnon and DeYoung doesn’t mean you have to continue to whine about it.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Non-responsive. Put up or shut up.

  • Hilewhousels@dayrep.com' Frank6550 says:

    See above. Repeat until you mature and gain wisdom. Or you can just post more nonsense below.

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    Non-responsive. As always. Poor Cranky Frankie.

  • Hilewhousels@dayrep.com' Frank6550 says:

    You know what’s the best part of your foolishness? More and more people are now looking up Gagnon and DeYoung. Thanks for helping me get the truth out!

  • fiona64@livejournal.com' fiona64 says:

    My goodness, what an active imagination you have to go with your narcissistic personality disorder.

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