Did the “Science Guy” Bill Nye Single-Handedly Revive Noah’s Ark Theme Park?

Bill Nye’s duels with creationist Ken Ham have greatly benefitted both of them. Nye’s new starring role as the public adversary of bible-thumping creationists has reinvigorated his career. Most recently he capitalized on this status by presenting a recap of the debate at a glitzy conference in Las Vegas.

What did Ken Ham get out of the deal? Ham has admitted that the high-profile evolution debate he had with Nye in February revived his floundering Ark project. Aside from the undisclosed financial returns from the debate itself Ham has gathered in $60+ million from wealthy donors who were motivated by the spectacle to invest in the Ark Encounter project in northern Kentucky.

When asked, Nye brushes off questions about whether he may rightly be criticized for taking part in a debate that helped to revive a creationist project he says he despises. Perhaps the correct question for Nye is, “Were you aware of Ham’s ulterior motives behind the staging of the February debate?” If Nye says he was not aware then it would only be fair to assume that Ham is light-years ahead of Nye when it comes to business acumen.

This isn’t just hindsight. A month before the debate University of Chicago professor of Evolutionary Science Jerry A. Coyne warned that Nye was making a very serious mistake and predicted it would resurrect the Ark Encounter project. If only Nye had listened to Coyne we wouldn’t be in our current predicament in Kentucky.

Before the debate Ham’s project was on the verge of collapsing. The necessary bond sales weren’t materializing and the state wasn’t prepared to make good on a promise to provide tax incentives and road funds—all of which changed after the debate.

Last week the Ark Encounter project broke ground. The Commonwealth is set to provide tax  incentives and road improvement expenditures of $30+ million to a religious scheme that has grossly discriminatory hiring practices and promotes a state image of collective ignorance. Thanks Bill Nye. Thankfully, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State is sending warnings that suing the state is an option if it insists on providing taxpayer support for this ridiculous venture.

So what should we all take away from this fiasco? A word to the wise. Those determined to take a principled stand against ignorance and bigotry ought to not only be aware of their own motives, but they must also make every effort to come to a seasoned awareness of the motives and goals of those they challenge. Otherwise, for all our good intentions, we risk being nothing more than pawns in the hands of those who will happily use us to forward their self-aggrandizing agenda.


  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Bill Nye didn’t single-handedly do anything. If your state allows homophobic, discriminatory hiring practices for non-secular companies using public money, that’s not Bill Nye. Also, the Dawkins Foundation and the patronizing shitstorm of polemics they kicked off, to cry out that young earth creationists are subhuman and beneath speaking to, probably did more to rile the sympathies of believers than anything. Not to mention the actual fear of losing the science pundits repeatedly betrayed. I guess the lesson is to never speak, ever.

    Maybe if the good smart people were as committed to their truth as the bad stupid people, they could have made this into their own fundraising opportunity. Why didn’t any pro-science education organizations think to capitalize on this debate? They all knew that the creationists would. They all feel very smug about being right. But they weren’t smart enough, or didn’t care enough, or were too busy being stuck up, to play the game to their own advantage.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    “If only Nye had listened to Coyne we wouldn’t be in our current predicament in Kentucky.”
    This is the fault of the state of Kentucky (for giving tax credits) and the religious for believing this bovine waste in the entirety. I watched this debate with millions of others and Nye was able to show the other side for what it was. The most telling point being when an audience member asked “what would change your mind”. Ken’s answer: the bible is the word of god.
    A lot of wealthy people will have wasted their money. The Creation “Museum” had falling attendance and was forced to put in zip lines to attract an audience – the Ark will be a financial failure.

    While Mike and I are on the same side, I disagree with his analysis.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Generally pro-science organizations are pushing accommodationism as hard as they can. If there is even the remote chance that they could be viewed as anti-religion, they shy away. None of the pro-science education organizations would touch this thing with a ten foot pole to avoid alienating the very demographic they so desperately want to educate.

    From Jerry Coyne’s website:

    I’m not so sure about the smugness, not caring, or being “stuck up” – I think they need to walk a very fine PR line.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    I can see what you’re saying, and I wouldn’t expect a counter-movement directly from anything too big or publicly-funded. But I think the constant dire warnings to Bill Nye were extremely counter-productive, and I know creationists gloated over their fear.

    If all the pundits writing “Billy Nye shouldn’t do it” had instead written “They’re trying to raise money for anti-science propaganda. If you support Bill Nye, donate to your local science museum.” We might have balanced out this missed-opportunity.

    I agree with what you say below, that this is a long-term loss. If 40% of the US is young earth creationist, then a
    roughly-matching proportion are evolution-accepting Christians, and Ken Ham insisted on making Christianity look ridiculous. Which is possibly a loss for Christianity as a whole, but if so, it’s because Christians who actually understand the Bible let him fly this “anti-science or anti-God” narrative without backlash.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Agreed. I’ve wondered about the 40% number. I always felt that most of these people were giving a “default” answer and that with a just a little bit of prompting a bunch of them would realize the mistake. Just a hunch though.

    On a side note, again Coyne, has noted that trying to get evangelicals (and similar) to believe in evolution is lost cause and that foundations like BioLogos don’t have a chance. His reasoning is that to accept evolution means that there were no historical Adam and Eve and at best they are a metaphor. This would mean that Jesus died on the cross for a metaphor and that this would be unacceptable to most. His position is that accomidationism isn’t going to be productive, which firmly puts him in the new atheist camp.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right, that 40% is overblown. I think many (maybe most) religious people are nominally religious, and don’t get caught up in this stuff.

    I strongly disagree with Coyne on that logic. I went to a very conservative Catholic school where evolution was taught without a glimmer of restraint or caveat, and since Augustine Catholicism has treated Adam and Eve like allegorical figures. But Catholics still take the crucifixion very literally. They take the Fall literally too, just not the Genesis parable about how it happened.

    Even Pat Robertson said you’d have to be “deaf, dumb and blind” to believe that the world is 6,000 years old. This shouldn’t be so hard for people.

  • bfields@panonbelievers.org' Brian Fields says:

    The alternative to NOT engaging with creationists is to allow their message to be presented to their flock unchallenged.

    And that is an even greater tragedy.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    I was nominally Catholic growing up, evolution was never challenged or supported. It is possible that I wasn’t even listening though 🙂

  • bob@deism.com' Deist1737 says:

    Perhaps the answer to pulling people out of the unreasonable/ungodly belief in the Bible story of Noah and the flood is to educate them to the fact that God gave us reason and not religion. If we had honestly exposed the nonsense the Bible is based on, no one would ever think of taking the Bible seriously or of giving cash to promote one of the lies/myths found in the Bible. In short, we need a revolution in religion based on our innate God-given reason and Deism as the American founder and Deist Thomas Paine called for in The Age of Reason, The Complete Edition.

    We should not attack Bill Nye for doing what’s right. He educated many of Ham’s followers and planted seeds in their minds. Sometimes it takes awhile for a seed to grow (it took me about two years after reading the first few pages of The Age of Reason to leave Christianity and the Bible behind for my innate God-given reason and Deism).

    Progress! Bob Johnson

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    I certainly know that I believe in a Creator, like the Founding Fathers did (thank God they believed that or where would we be?) and I study the sciences all the time. I do it if only to get a good laugh at all the NEW truths they come up with that shake the faith of true believers in soon to be discarded scientific theories.

    Science is as much a religion as any other religion. You believe that their were people in the Americans 20,000 years ago. HERETIC! LOL

    I love the truths of science I grew up on being taught in government propaganda mills. Like there were no humans in the Americas before 11,000 BC. Or how about the new one where between 70,000 and 42,000 years ago early man built ships to get to Australia? Or that Clovis Man came from China and not Europe? Or that the Minoans were not mining copper by the Great Lakes? Or that Vikings were not living in the Americas long before Christopher Columbus was born. Or… What a wonderful source of never ending laughter.

    And the Christians that believe in the 6,000 year old Earth are as much fun to laugh at. Only one Noah? Oh sure. The Bible is the history of the WHOILE world? Yeah Right! Laugh a minute!

    Isn’t religion just so much fun? The religion of science especially? Don’t’ talk to THAT religion. It may help them look NORMAL and that we MUST not do. Too flipping funny.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Because they are not led by the Spirit of God and so their minds are clouded with unimportant things and because it interferes with their ever growing egos of believing they are smarter than Christians.

    Does that answer your question?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Right on. Don’t piss off the people that have children you want to indoctrinate with your false religion of science. That would not only be ineffective to your goals but would hurt the bottom line financially. What if all those stupid Christians stopped sending their children to you? Why the tax money would dry up. Atheist teachers would be let go. And what would they do then? They may have to get an honest job instead of being High Priests in the government funded Public Education Churches.

    And these STUPID flipping Christians fall for it and send their children to Atheists, like you,to be taught about the Bible in schools that don’t allow for Bible study. 🙂 Too funny! I mean WTF?

    It is SO MUCH FUN to watch. Thanks for this article and the comments. I am nearly falling out of my chair laughing.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    By all means do not expect public funding to support the Civic Religion of Atheism and science that is already publicly funded so as to be an obvious Establishment clause violation for being anti-Christian.

    this article and the comments are DEFINITELY going in my RFRA and establishment clause violations file. Thanks!

    What happens to Americans rights when the majority, as a nation, abandon the belief that Rights are a gift from God? Have you even considered that?

    “Survival of the Fittest” and “Natural Selection” as legal foundations for a FREE people do not work AT ALL. They work perfectly for a Communist country however.

    But keep on enslaving yourselves. Voluntary slavery is the key to the Marxist plan. I do so enjoy watching it unfold.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Total nonsense. Natural selection and social Darwinism are the rotten heart of capitalism. Nothing in human history suggests that theism protects society from them. But this is also completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Duh. The Spirit of God was busy designing a stupid theme park.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Those poor ole’ “The Bible is the only word of God and is inerrant Christians.” They do struggle so. Don’t they? How can anyone be so stupid and indoctrinated to believe such garbage?

    How about if Adam was real but was not the only intelligent being on earth, just as the Bible and other ancient documents like the Nag Hammadi Library and the Book of Enoch tell us occurred?

    How about if Adam was just the father of the Biblical people and not everyone?

    How about if God recycles worlds? What natural record would there be if God started over with this earth as far as man?

    Is Venus a new earth being created by God?

    How about the possibility that there was more than one Noah?

    How about the possibility that since Adam and Eve could not die before they obtained the knowledge of Good and Evil that the Garden of Eden was just a small place on earth while natural earth went on around it?

    If the world was not going on and different than the Garden then what did it matter if they got kicked out? What was the difference?

    How long does the Bible say Adam and Eve were in the Garden? You mean it doesn’t say? How about that? Was a 15 million years? 50 million? A week? And how long is a day to a God who is timeless? What does science say about how long a day is to God?

    Who did Adam’s children marry? Were they outside the garden for 200,000 years waiting for Eve to finally make the RIGHT choice and eat of the forbidden fruit?

    We were told by science that our DNA all comes from one man and one woman and yet they have discovered that many of us have Neanderthal DNA. How is that possible? The DNA line would have to have been interrupted if Neanderthal got involved?

    Maybe the Bible’s Adam was a Neanderthal? Why not?

    Oh my how many questions cannot be answered by the Bible or science. The list goes on and grows with each new discovery.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    “false religion of science” – how is that computer working for you? Have children? Get them vaccinated?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Science religious dogma v Christian religious dogma is exactly what this topic is about. And should men of science even talk to men that question their religion of science?

    Does the Declaration of Independence proclaim that we get our rights from a Creator?

    If you disagree with this then tell me where our rights come from? Government? Nature? Tyrants? Democracy? Science? Dialectical Materialism? Mao? Marx? What? Where do we get our Unalienable rights which are the very foundation of the American system where all Americans are sovereign equals without subjects? CREATED EQUAL! Not Evolved equally.

    Does the U.S. or USSR Constitution call for a separation of church and state? Do you know? Which Article/Section can I find that rule proclaimed? (It is in all three USSR Constitutions and never in the U.S. Constitution.)

    Laws of God that are ALWAYS ignored by men and women eventually take people back to Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest. The story of Cain and Able is a perfect example of this. History repeats. This does not condemn theism. It agrees with its core principle. Ignore the laws of God and suffer the natural consequence of such choices. Thou shall not steal Ignore that and WARs happen. Thou shall not murder. Ignore that law and WARs happen. Ignore the laws of God and you forge your own chains. That is basic real Christianity. As Jefferson wrote: Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just. –Thomas Jefferson

    The other major Founding Fathers that believed in God (all of them did) agreed:

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. –John Adams

    Obviously the Constitution has indeed become wholly inadequate because we are not, as a majority, a moral and religious people.

    “The worship of God is a duty…Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature… I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, and governed it by His Providence…The pleasures of this world are rather from God’s goodness than our own merit… Whoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world… Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” –Benjamin Franklin

    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters. –Benjamin Franklin

    Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God then tyrants forge their chains. –Patrick Henry

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    People that claim to follow God often do not or do foolish things. That does not mean that God approves of foolishness. The Bible is clear:

    Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Would you eat a burger that had only 5% cow dung in it and call it good? How much of science yesterday is crap today? How much of science today will be crap tomorrow?

    Is this earth not real and actually just a hologram? The math works for that new scientific theory.

    When a Religion builds a church meeting house does it fall down because the Church has false doctrine? So even a church can do some things right?

    I love science. I don’t love the religion of science that does not seek for truth but seeks to justify theories. Theories like all native Americans came across a the land bridge 13,000 years ago and scientists that disagree are ostracized and cut off from funding and ridiculed. Or that Evolution, even if correct, somehow proves that there is no Creator.

    I would never vaccinate my grandchildren or send them to government schools. People like you do not get to destroy their minds and teach them to be happy Marxist Atheists voluntary slaves.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    People who value empiricism often do foolish things too. I’m 100% certain you and your handful of followers who are the only people on earth led by the true Spirit of God also do foolish things, and I’m even fairly confident that you won’t deny it. So what is your problem? This conversation is going nowhere.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    The fact that science is intentionally self-correcting and subject to ongoing testing is what makes it different from religion. The criticism that scientific theories evolve is no criticism; it’s the point. Speaking of points, do you have one?

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    “Science dogma” is an oxymoron. The same man who wrote the Declaration of Independence, talking about “unalienable rights” and a “Creator” was a slave owner. He had human slaves. Is that righteousness, in your religion? Is that equality?

    Rights do not exist as platonic forms. They are societal constructs. They have no external planet of origin. As members of society, we can do our best to construct them fairly according to our best judgment and values. That is the best hope we have on earth, as far as civics. It will never be perfect.

    I have literally no idea what you mean by “laws of God.” But it doesn’t take a decree from God for people to realize that unrestrained killing and stealing are not socially tolerable. And literal belief in God does not stop wars, does not stop hierarchy, does not stop natural selection.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    So your computer and vaccinations aren’t working well for you?

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    “our innate God-given reason” – I think evolutionary biologists would state that reason developed via evolutionary forces acting on our brain.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    The vaccination I got for Tetanus almost killed me. So it didn’t work the way it was supposed to. I never got Polio but then I didn’t have a choice on that one. I still have the scar. I understand they wear off after decades when we were told by science it would never wear off. So that one didn’t work as claimed.

    My grandchildren didn’t get Whooping Cough and they were never vaccinated. It must have been God that kept them illness free. Right?

    My computer works great after my very religious computer genius son repaired it. Do you think an atheist computer tech could have done as good a job fixing it? Or was my son inspired by God to fix it as God wanted it fixed?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Yes. We who value empiricism especially in Spiritual matters do do foolish things. We are human and fallible just like Atheists.

    And Heavens no. Billions are led by the Lord. Even non-believers are given Spiritual Gifts. God maketh it rain on the believers and non-believers. I know that every Atheist in the USA was given Unalienable Right by the Creator. Every man and woman on earth is a child of the Most High. Christ died that EVERY man may have a physical body in the next life, even Atheists.

    This conversation has been wonderful for my research. And it is definitely going some place. Right into my RFRA research file. Your religion and the way it is practiced is very important for me to understand so I am doing my best anthropomorphic research combining personal experience and evidence I find with actual Atheists. It has been very enjoyable.


  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Whooping cough? Herd protection. You life under the yoke of science has been difficult. I feel bad for you.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Many fields of science are more like intentionally covering up new evidence that clashes with worshipped religious doctrine by established main stream government funded professors.

    My religion is self-correcting. I don’t follow that ridiculous belief that God gave us the Bible and that is it. Only a fool would believe such a thing and still believe that God is all powerful.

    In fact proof is a key element in my religion: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    Those that seek, in my religion, can find. Matthew 7:7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

    I am a seeker. I hold fast to that which is good and throw out the dross.

    You Atheists certainly have an incorrect view of religion (aka “belief in an ultimate reality” like there is no afterlife) as a whole. Very bigoted and openly bias in my opinion. I am shocked. I would have thought you would be more open minded. Sad.

    The point is I am researching how Atheists worship, how they worship and what they worship using scientific method including personal experience and evidence, especially sensory experience. It has been a 20 year study so far and it has been extremely enlightening.

    I never would have believed 20 years ago that Mao is/was worshipped as a god, or that Communist China is considered to be the most successful Civil Religion on earth today (such religions are unconstitutional in the U.S.), or that Marx was considered to be a prophet by leading Communists, or that Communism is repeatedly labeled as a religion by well respected people. Now, however, the evidence is overwhelming.

    With the Hobby Lobby ruling and the open admonitions of people like Sarah Posner and Kara Loewentheil I have been able to put together some nice evidence (no where near complete) about Feminism as a religion. Very helpful in my anthropological religious research.

    Did that answer your question about, what is the point?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    It is an oxymoron to people that find the thought anathema. Atheist despise having their faith in no God defined as a religion. But it is just that according to the courts for it has an “ultimate reality.”

    Have you studied the laws of Virginia that made it impossible for Washington or Jefferson to just free the slaves they held? Do you know what would have happened to the slaves if they did just freed them? Of course you haven’t and don’t. Your opinion is TOTALLY bias and based on a lack of knowledge.

    Is it righteous to have slaves? I believe that all men and women are created equal and so for one man to hold another in involuntary servitude is evil in my religion. And yet YOU would have the government TAKE my property and give it to others through taxation to fund your “sacred trust” religion. And you think that is moral and good. Well I believe it is more than evil…it is Satanic.

    Your beliefs about rights are unAmerican, anti-Consitituion, anti-Declaration of Independence and anti-American history. We disagree vehemently. The Founders speak against you. Not one would support your beliefs. Both those that held slaves and those that did not.

    The Founders would know what I meant when I wrote: “The laws of God.” I can understand why you would not have a clue.

    I am a Viking by birth. My ancient family worshipped Thor, Odin, Frigg and Freja. Unrestrained killing and stealing were not only socially tolerable they were a requirement to get to Valhalla. History repeats.

    We are bombing people around the world that disagree with American policies. Unrestrained killing and stealing is public policy and well funded by taxation YOU PAY.

    A belief in God does not stop anything. Following His instructions and commandment has, however, historically stopped wars. It has saved American armies from destruction according to eye witness testimony and sensory experience.

    “Following the battle Washington wrote a letter to his brother in which he readily and openly acknowledge:
    By the all powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability or expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat and two horses shot under me, yet I escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me!”

    Would you like Washington’s enemy’s report that confirmed Washington observation about why he was not shot? I have that too. But you would reject that too because your FAITH does not allow it to have happened as claimed.

    Just because YOU reject such eye witness testimony does not mean it is not exactly what happened. YOU just have FAITH that Washington’s belief was wrong, all evidence to the contrary. This is why your Atheist beliefs are as much a religion as any Catholic or Buddhist or Hindu. Thanks for the confirmation.

    Nations have been left desolate because of disobedience to God’s laws. This nation was allowed to be established because of obedience to God’s laws.

    Here is a well know successful scientist that totally disagrees with your belief about God and hierarchy: “I have lived, sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe, that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little, partial, local interests, our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword to future ages.” –Benjamin Franklin

    And Franklin was not a slave owner so you you cannot defame him like you have done with TJ and Washington.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    I love science. It is a method. I use it in my research on law and religion and in my art and in construction.

    A computer is not science. It is the byproduct of science. A steak is the byproduct or a butcher’s work. So are the contents of the cow’s gut but I don’t eat cow crap.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    But like all good, Satan corrupts good for his purposes. I take the good science has to offer and throw out the parts that are of no value.

    Don’t you? Or do you just blindly accept everything science tells you?

    “The important thing is not to stop questioning.” –Albert Einstein

    He called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist, preferring, “an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”

    Smart man.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    I’m not an atheist.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Good. I misidentified you.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Jefferson did “just free” some of his slaves.

    Are you really as stupid as you’re acting? A vast majority of human societies in history have permitted killing and robbing of other societies. A vast majority of them followed theistic religions. Good fucking grief. George Washington killed British people. America stole this land from Natives.

    I don’t know what you mean by laws of God because your religion is all made up, as you repeatedly acknowledge.

    I also don’t think your Ben Franklin quote means what you think it means. You’re describing a God of fierce and literal reciprocity. No amount of co-opting the spiritual reflections of historical figures will make that God exist.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    I am not an atheist, but I can tell you that atheism is not a religion. At best, it’s one tenet of any number of “religions” or ideologies. Not all atheists are communists. Not all atheists care about science.

    Feminism is also more than one thing. If you treat complicated things as simple, you won’t get anywhere.

    If you call this research, that might say something about your weird opinions about science.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Permitted? Permitted? They promoted it. From Rome to the Vikings to present day USA killing other people was promoted policy. It was done for the General Welfare. It was a ticket to Heaven.

    While alive Jefferson freed 2 out of hundreds.

    Are you really as stupid as you sound? A vast majority of people have never followed the laws of God. Name ONE Christian majority society that followed the Christian laws for any length of time? I know of one possible that practiced Christianity for about 100 years. Many of the gods people followed were blood and guts gods. Christ was a very different God. And have His laws been followed? NEVER by an large population except for maybe the one I mentioned.

    Of course Atheism has been very peaceful with Stalin and Mao killing more of their own people than all other modern countries combined.

    All religions are all made up. You mock my deeply held beliefs but name one that was not made up? Catholics? That is the most corrupt made up religion on earth except for Calvinism. So just look at the Laws of God the majority of the Founders professed and that is pretty close to mine. Especially the words of Jefferson, Franklin and Madison. Adams…not so much.

    Did White America steal this land or did God give it to them? That is a question that science can’t answer.

    I think Franklin’s quote is in agreement with the words of Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Webster and even Adams. So I am in good company. Their Inaugural addresses and Webster’s anniversary speech confirm their belief that God fought for America against the English and without His aid we could not have formed this nation.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    You can tell me that the moon is made of cheese too. So what? Do Atheists have an “ultimate reality”? Yes they do. They believe that when they die there is no afterlife. That is a religion by legal definition. They have no proof. They have faith. Agnostics don’t meet with that legal definition of religion.

    Do Atheist have different beliefs. Yes. Do Christians have different beliefs? Yes. Does that mean that Christianity is not a religion because some of us DO believe that science has value? Ridiculous.

    I treat Feminism for what I need to use it for. I don’t need it for its abortion of demand claims or its equal pay for equal work positions. Or a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle crap. I only care that I can tie it to the establishment violations by the government. So has it become a religion? Yes. Have leaders stated some of their religious goals? Yes. (Thanks Kara) Have leaders declared their beliefs to be religious? Yes.

    Lemons can be used to flavor foods or drinks but when I cut one it is to treat my sunburn. It is that simple. I am looking for what I need not all of the possibilities. When you cook or order dinner for yourself do you include all food or just what you want?

    I call it research because religion is what people do with it. Didn’t you know that? Perhaps you should do more research on how the meaning of religion has been drastically changed in the last 100 years by SCOTUS. Seeger changed dang near everything. Do you know what a civl religion is or a cvic religion or what the religion of secularism is?

    So pull your nose out of the air and put it in a law book you ivory tower elitist.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    You’re right, all religions are made up. Welcome to atheism.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Atheists do not all have the same “ultimate reality.” Christianity is not one religion either. We agree.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    God made up the world. God made up the animals. God made up religions and man made up religions. Welcome to free choice. Welcome to theism.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    By all means please describe an atheists belief where there is an afterlife.

  • bob@deism.com' Deist1737 says:

    I agree that evolutionary forces acting on our brain is a large part of it. But that wouldn’t be possible if not for the intelligence based working code within DNA. Intelligence based code that makes brains possible, not to mention all the intelligence based laws and designs found throughout the known Universe. The Deist Albert Einstein ( http://www.deism.com/einstein.htm } did a great job of expressing this when he wrote, “I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.”

    Progress! Bob Johnson

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    There’s more to “ultimate reality” than an afterlife. Numerous religions have the same afterlife. Numerous other religions have none.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    “Numerous religions…” “Numerous other religions…” Now you are getting it. “Religions” being the key word.

    And you didn’t describe an atheist’s belief that included an afterlife. I’m still waiting because I would really like to study that faith but I have never even heard of one that had such a belief.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    I’m not an atheist. Why don’t you ask someone who cares.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Why do you continue to post concerning what I write if you don’t care? Just can’t get enough of me? I often have that effect on people.

    The reason you SHOULD care is because the United States government is unconstitutionally establishing a civic religion and forcing people to pay to support the principles and doctrines of that civic religion that destroy the liberty of every American.

    The Supreme Court ruled in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, *578, (1992) that the government cannot establish a civic religion: “[T]he government may not establish an official or civic religion as a means of avoiding the establishment of a religion with more specific creeds.”

    The Supreme Court ruled that the government cannot establish a religion of secularism in School Dist. of Abington Tp., Pa. v. Schempp 374 U.S. 203, *225, (1963): “We agree of course that the State may not establish a ‘religion of secularism’ in the sense of affirmatively opposing or showing hostility to religion, thus ‘preferring those who believe in no religion over those who do believe.”

  • whitemellon@gmail.com' niteshade says:

    All the founding father’s? You sure about that sparky?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Please tell me of one Founding Father that did not believe in a Creator.

    Even Deists, and those were few and far between, believed in a Creator.

    So I will be very interested in your evidence, Drippy.

  • zinealine@gmail.com' cranefly says:

    Get over yourself. When you change the subject, I lose interest. You already made us well-aware, repeatedly, that your solipsistic religion is pathologically antisocial and prohibits any form of societal cooperation upon punishment of some absurdly literal divine retribution. I have just enough faith in a semblance of natural law to maintain my opinion that cooperation in society is part of being human.

    Whatever I might otherwise agree with you on, I don’t believe in your God of Anger and I don’t worship the Supreme Court or the Constitution. You’re utterly devoted to a very Marxist concept of ideology-as-“religion” for someone who hates socialism so much.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Why is liberty anti-social? Because you believe it is righteous to FORCE people to pay for your religion of Socialism? You actually support tyranny.

    You actually disagree with Jefferson when he wrote: “To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical.”

    You believe that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is moral and social. What a thief you are.

    My God is not an angry God. He just doesn’t believe that theft by governments is a good thing. But you do.

    I will not be responding. My beloved dog, 13 years old, is having seizures tonight. Looks like I will be saying goodbye to a dear friend.

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