Fear Not, The IRS Isn’t Colluding With Angry Atheists

Here’s a headline crafted to strike fear in the hearts of Christian conservatives, already primed by the ongoing Republican investigations of the Internal Revenue Service, to think the IRS is out to get them: “Congress Demands Answers over IRS’s ‘Collusive’ Attempt to Target Churches at the Behest of Angry Atheists.”

The representatives demanding answers are Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) and eight members of the 67-member Congressional Constitution Caucus, whose mission “is to promote an American future that remains true to its revolutionary past.” On Monday they sent a letter to IRS Commissioner John Koskinen, requesting responses to “deep concerns” about a “dismissal agreement” in a lawsuit filed by the atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation, which sought to compel the IRS to enforce its own regulations prohibiting electioneering from the pulpit.

As I explained last year:

Churches and other houses of worship, whose tax exempt status is under section (c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, risk their tax-exempt status if they use tax-exempt resources to endorse political candidates. Although the law is clear, no audits have been initiated since 2009, after a federal court ordered the agency to issue regulations clarifying requirements that audits of churches be authorized by an “appropriate high-level Treasury official.”

During the uproar over the supposed IRS targeting of tea party groups, conservative Christian groups tried to claim that they, too, were targeted by the IRS for their religious beliefs. IRS movement on the audit procedures will likely trigger more complaints from conservative legal and religious groups that the agency is attempt to stifle their free speech. Through efforts such as Pulpit Freedom Sunday, pastors openly flout the law. Enforcement of the rule, and the revocation of a participating church’s tax-exempt status, though, could trigger a constitutional challenge to it.

The rule against politicking, though, isn’t aimed at suppressing free speech but at ensuring that taxpayers don’t subsidize political activity by tax-exempt religious organizations.

FFRF sued the IRS in 2012, and the parties recently settled the case—or, more accurately, FFRF withdrew its lawsuit, satisfied that, for the moment at least, the IRS was enforcing its own regulations. But a rumor percolated in conservative media that a “secret settlement” between FFRF and the IRS represented a nefarious plot by the IRS to do the bidding of “angry atheists” to “silence” churches. Earlier this month, Ralph Reed’s Faith and Freedom Coalition demanded “the release of a secret legal agreement between the Internal Revenue Service and a radical atheist organization that portends increased scrutiny and harassment of churches and Christians, potentially infringing upon their First Amendment rights of freedom of speech and association.”

Upon closer examination—surprise!—that turns out not to be the case.

Patrick Elliott, a staff attorney at FFRF, told me “there has been a lot of misinformation published about the resolution of the case,” and pointed me to FFRF’s Memo Supporting Dismissal of the case. In support of its motion to withdraw its own lawsuit, FFRF cited, and filed with the court, a letter from the Internal Revenue Service to the Department of Justice, dated June 27, 2014, describing how “the IRS has processed several cases involving churches using procedures designed to ensure that the protections afforded to churches by the Church Audit Procedures Act are adhered to in all enforcement interaction between the IRS and churches.”

No agreement between the IRS and the FFRF. Just a letter from the IRS to the Justice Department, upon which FFRF relied in deciding to withdraw its own lawsuit.

Its procedures, the IRS letter went on:

require evaluation of the information item by our Review of Operations (“ROD”) unit and then the Political Activities Referral Committee (“PARC”). With regard to these referrals that concern violations by churches, the PARC has determined that as of June 23, 2014, 99 churches merit a high priority examination. Of these 99 churches, the number of churches alleged to have violated the prohibition during 2010 is 15, during 2011 is 18, during 2012 is 65, and during 2013 is one.

As a result, FFRF wrote in its motion:

Based on available information, FFRF and its counsel are satisfied that the I.R.S. no longer has an explicit policy or practice of not enforcing the the electioneering restrictions of § 501(c)(3) against churches. For that reason, FFRF is agreeable to a voluntary dismissal of the pending action.

As FFRF notes in an FAQ about the case it posted on its website on August 7, “FFRF agreed to voluntary dismissal of its case because recent clarifications by the IRS have remedied its concerns. FFRF is satisfied that the IRS does not at this time have a policy specific to churches of non-enforcement of its anti-electioneering provisions.” Responding to charges that there was an agreement that the IRS would “monitor” churches, FFRF added that it “did not withdraw its suit pursuant to any agreement to ‘monitor’ sermons and homilies for proscribed speech with which FFRF disagrees. As the court documents state, FFRF withdrew the case because it ‘is satisfied that the IRS does not have a policy at this time of non-enforcement specific to churches and religious institutions.'”  


  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    The newsletter I get for being a member details the secret agreement – don’t tell Ralph Reed.

  • SWhaption6548@gustr.com' Frank6548 says:

    Be diligent for the continued persecution of Christianity even if this appears to not be one of them.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Man, American Christians got it so rough these days.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    I know, they want to avoid taxes and be politically active – the crown of thorns.

    If only every single president in the history of the country was a Christian…

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    I hope you’re not suggesting that that black, socialist, communist, muslim, queer Obama is a Christian!

  • mlshatto@dejazzd.com' Marian L Shatto says:

    Mmm, it took me a minute to find your other post and recognize your tone of voice. Where IS that sarcasm font when you need it??

  • bb11056@gmail.com' Bryan Blake says:

    The problem is the so called “tax exemption”. It violates the First Amendment’s “establishment clause”. While I believe in some sort of god/goddess I do not follow any religion. Therefore, I, other non religious persons, atheists, agnostics, ordinary spiritualists and other nonbelievers are forced, through the tax exemption, to subsidize religions of various sorts. Even religions subsidize other religions.

    Church vans travel our roads without paying taxes to help build them. Fire and police departments protect their property and so on. Religion in and of itself is divisive. It creates “fanatics of all stripes” and has done so throughout history. Even in our current time blood flows in the name religion.

    It is long past time to end the special “privileges” in our society that religions enjoy.

  • GMG248 says:

    The persecution myth of white American Christianity is a fascinating phenomenon. I am not certain about whether to discourage or encourage this sense of paranoia. It sometimes functions as an inhibitor. It sometimes fuels the martyr complex and leads to egregious assaults on the rights of others in order to provoke some response that can be claimed to be persecution.

  • robert.m.jeffers@lonestar.edu' Rmj says:

    Church vans pay gasoline taxes. There is no exemption from that for churches; at least, none I know of that resets the price already set at the gas pump.

    The “privilege” allowed to churches is the same granted to any charitable organization. No more, no less. Most church buildings aren’t really worth anything except as church buildings, and most churches taken in only about $100,000 a year, and about half of that goes to the pastor, the rest of upkeep or charitable purposes. To tax a church would literally put most of them out of business, as no one would donate to them (any more than they would to a taxed charity) if the money was going to pay taxes, rather than to support the work of the church.

    Everyone who attends the church, or works for it (unless they are clergy who have taken a vow of poverty, which means basically only RC priests) pays taxes. The church also pays taxes on its phone bill, same as anyone else; and all other incidental taxes like, as I said at the beginning, gasoline taxes. It pays sales tax on whatever it purchases, same as any other entity.

    So the loss of revenue from property taxes for a church is actually a rather small one.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    We are moving from a world where Christianity is of major importance to one where it is a more minor influence. This is all part of the process, so it probably makes little difference if you encourage or discourage the paranoia. Either way there is bound to be some chaos as a result of the changes.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    501(c)(3) churches should be harassed by the IRS until they all shut down. They are an abomination to the Lord. They have placed the IRS above them as their masters and rejected God. They are like Israel in the days of Samuel and demanded a king while rejecting God. May the Marxists tyranny of the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto CRUSH such churches.

    The First Amendment makes churches tax exempt. 501(c)(3) is for IDIOTS.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    If you were being taxed to support a religion, any religion, what would you do?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Thanks for confirming this prophesy is coming about:

    1 Nephi 14:12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    The many denominations is a key to the structure of Christianity. They can all blame the others for the problems

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Unless the Church van can run without gas it is paying for the roads.

    The First Amendment does not allow Congress to tax churches. “Make NO law.” But I agree with you that 501(c)(3) is an establishment clause violation. As a matter of fact the entire IRC (26 USC) is an establishment clause violation as it is establishing the civic religion of Marxism.

    World renowned economist John Maynard Keynes in his 1925 book, A Short View of Russia, as edited down for “Essays in Persuasion” (Harcourt Brace, 1932.

    Chapter IV, Page 297, I. A Short View of Russia, (I) What is the Communist Faith

    Leninism is a combination of two things which Europeans have kept for some centuries in different compartment of the soul—religion and business. We are shocked because the religion is new, and contemptuous because the business, being subordinated to the religion instead of the other way around, is highly inefficient.

    Like other new religions, Leninism derives its power not from the multitude but from a small minority of enthusiastic converts, whose zeal and intolerance make each one the equal in strength of a hundred indifferentists. Like other new religions, it is led by those who can combine the new spirit, perhaps sincerely, with seeing a good deal more than their followers, (p. 298) politicians with at least an average dose of political cynicism, who can smile as well as frown, volatile experimentalists, released by religion from truth and mercy but not blinded to facts and expediency, and open therefore to the charge (superficial and useless though it is where politicians, lay or ecclesiastical, are concerned) of hypocrisy. Like other new religions, it seems to take the colour and gaiety and freedom out of everyday life and to offer a drab substitute on the square wooden faces of its devotees. Like other new religions, it persecutes without justice or pity those that actively resist it. Like other new religions, it is unscrupulous. Like other new religions, it is filled with missionary ardour and oecumenical ambitions. But to say that Leninism is the faith of a persecuting and propagating minority of fanatics led by hypocrites is, after all, to say no more nor less than that it is a religion and not merely a party, and Lenin a Mahomet, not a Bismark.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    My choice would be vote all Republicans out of office.

  • reedjim51@gmail.com' Jim Reed says:

    I have a suggestion to make. If you want to accomplish that, don’t quote any of the Mormon books because the moment you do almost everyone will tune you out.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    The privilege granted by 501(c)(3) to Churches is voluntary slavery.

    Income tax is just the enforcement of the tithing of the religion of Marxism.

    As British Marxist Ernest Belfort Bax wrote, “socialism brings back religion from heaven to earth [it looks not] to another world but to … a higher social life … whose ultimate possibilities are beyond the power of language to express.”

    “Socialism in Russia, even when atheistic, bears the impress of religion…” Nicolas Berdyaev, The Russian Idea (New York: Macmillan, 1948) p. 153

    It is in the Far East that communism comes closest to being a religion-with salvation, one might say, based on faith. Robert V. Daniels, ed., A Documentary History of Communism (New York: Random House, 1960) p. 282

    Robert Harvey–a journalist and author of many books, who, as a British member of Parliament on the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee in the mid-1980s, followed Soviet affairs closely–argues that communism was a “religion,” a “Church of Man,” “the most successful (if short-lived) political creed of all time,” and “a reactionary reversion to the hierarchy of national feudalism.” Jonathan W. Daly, “A Short History of Communism,” The Historian 68.3 (2006)

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Yes. We do have it rough. The Civic religion of Marxism is being forced upon us. Even with such a small thing as needing to have a U.S. dollar with a Congressionally regulated value has been denied to us. We have been discriminated and imprisoned and threatened beginning in 1913 AD.

    All I ask for is to be able to have a single regulated value for the U.S. dollar (Art. I Sec. 8) and not 6 different values as per 31 USC 5112 (a)-(e) in violation of law

    Deut. 25:13 ¶ Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.

    Prov. 20: 10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

    Micah 6: 10 ¶ Are there yet the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure that is abominable?

    Can you tell me what the non divers weight and measure is of the U.S. dollar? And PLEASE do tell me about FRNs. FRNs are NOT dollars. They are fraudulent promises to pay.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Avoiding taxes is not only legal it is patriotic. Evading taxes is illegal. As is taxing to assist one religion over another as is done with the IRC.

    “I live in Alexandria, Virginia. Near the Supreme Court Chambers is a toll bridge across the Potomac. When in a rush, I pay the dollar toll & get home early. However, I usually drive outside the downtown section of the city and cross the Potomac on the free bridge. This bridge was placed outside the downtown Washington DC area to serve a useful social service getting drivers to drive the extra mile & help alleviate congestion during the rush hour.

    “If I went over the toll bridge and through the barrier without paying the toll, I would be committing tax evasion. If, however, I drive the extra mile & drive outside the city of Washington to the free bridge, I am using a legitimate, logical & suitable method of tax avoidance, & I am performing a useful social service by doing so. For my tax evasion, I should be punished. For my tax avoidance, I should be commended. The tragedy of life today is that so few people know that the free bridge even exists.”

    – Justice Louis D. Brandeis

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Truth can be the greatest insult of all.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Or they can blame their own lack of obedience to the will of God. Or they can blame those that follow Satan’s religion of Socialism.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    If we could just couple that WONDERFUL goal with the removal of all the Democrats too, I am ALL IN.

    Of course if only the Democrat were in office then we would have the absolute establishment of the civic religion of Marxism. But you would like that.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    You were the one that confirmed the “Mormon” prophesy. Not me.

    Did it bother you that some “Mormon” prophet would know about folks like you 2600 years ago? It must have.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Haha, good one.

  • dkeane123@comcast.net' DKeane123 says:

    Their “bridge” is endorsing candidates. If they do, then they are going to have to pay a toll – just like everyone else.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Why does it matter that you are quoting people whose opinions are meaningless to us? These are proof of nothing. Not even evidence of anything except that some people had some opinions and you share that opinion. Your opinions and theirs are still ridiculous. This is high school freshman levels of research and argument.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Jeez, if only we could get our hands on those plates…

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Ha! What a farce.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Rutgers didn’t think so I do High School research and found my arguments “compelling. But then you don’t think much of Rutgers either. Right?

    I could quote many others but why waste them on people that practice the religion that they don’t want anyone to know is a religion?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Why? Or is that the best you can do?

  • msprague2002@yahoo.ca' MarkS2002 says:

    Where in the King James Bible does “Satan’s religion of Socialism ” appear?

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    And I am limited to the KJV because…?

    Under the RFRA defense or claim it does not matter what you think it what the government thinks. It matters what the defendant/claimant believes.

    Here is a very short version of reasons why I believe it is the religion of Satan as per the KJV? But my complete belief is certainly not limited to that corrupted, Catholic, Roman emperor, English Monarch political tool, of a book.

    Christ’s gospel is a gospel of liberty, not voluntary slavery.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    Psalms 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

    But Satan is the father of lies and theft and fraud and captivity and tyranny.

    John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Socialism is a lie. It is theft. It is slavery. It is hereditary bondage like Social Security is hereditary bondage. And Income tax is theft and fraud and a gigantic lie. It is pernicious. It is the very foundation of covetousness. To take from one that has earned it and give it to another under threat, duress and coercion by the government. It is stealing the God given rights of life, liberty and property. It was created by the False prophet Marx who was even called a prophet by his own follower, Trotsky. It does not allow Americans to render unto American sovereigns what is our own but steals it to make our what was to be our servant our master.

    2nd Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    Covetousness is at the very heart of Socialism. Take from A to give to B. It is theft by government. It turns sovereigns into serfs.

    Leviticus 19:11 ¶Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

    The government must steal from people to give that wealth to others. The IRS, the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto, deals falsely with people if only that they claim that income taxes are voluntary.They call Federal Reserve Notes dollar and force people to commit perjury ion their 1040 forms or risk punishment. The IRS and the government lie about many things. From the debt to the dollar to what Income taxes pay for which is the debt created by the 5th plank of the Commie Manifesto written by the false Prophet, Karl Marx (not Harpo).

    The 5th Plank of the Communist Manifesto changed just enough so as to be used by Fascism by the same Capitalists that financed the Manifesto, the Rothschilds. That is the Federal Reserve System that has created and system of unjust weights and balances which are an abomination unto the Lord.

    Proverbs 16:11 A just weight and balance are the Lord’s: all the weights of the bag are his work.

    Proverbs 20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the Lord; and a false balance is not good.

    For Satan is a liar, and the father of it. Pretty simple.

    There are a VERY FEW reason I make the claim. But my claim is certainly not limited to the KJV. It barely scratches the surface of my reasons.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    You’re talking about that article that was “compelling” but rejected? Woopdeedoo.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Do you believe every person who comes around claiming they’re a prophet or “translating” a prophet’s words? Give me a break.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    “Don’t work only while being watched, in order to please men, but as slaves of Christ, do God’s will from your heart.” Eph 6.6

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    It was never rejected. It was withdrawn. I was involved in a class action suit and the money to move forward, that was promised, never materialized so it was dropped due to lack of funding. It had nothing to do with anything I did wrong and my arguments were never rejected. I did not know that Rutgers wrote anything about it until well over a year later.

    Please get your facts straight. I know that will be difficult for you but at least you could try.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    The KJV has a different interpretation to the Eph 6:6

    6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

    Eph 6:6 has an interesting meaning when coupled with:

    1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    So what is Paul trying to gain?

    Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    WOW Be made kings just like all American sovereigns are kings.

    Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

    Christ was/is God and yet also the servant of all mankind. Of course all righteous kings are servants to their people. If we want to be kings and priests then we must also be voluntary servants to mankind for which we will be eternally well paid.

    If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

    And as I have repeatedly stated, the Bible is a political book used by tyrants like Constantine and King James and Popes for their political agendas. It is not inerrant and is not complete and has many errors and omissions.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    How could I get the facts straight about an almost anonymous no one. And why would I care since your opinion about the world will die with you.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    But it will not die with me and is a growing movement. My children don’t have SSNs. My grandchildren don’t have SSNs.

    And what will die and die soon is the Socialist Security system as it cannot survive the Baby Boomers. Trillions in unfunded debt is about to come due and because of Feminists and abortionists and anti-Christs there are not enough slaves/children to pay the debt.

    Can’t you do the math. Ha Ha.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    A little family movement that will weaken when the patriarch passes, and will evaporate when your children & grandchildren get some sense of the actual world & become disillusioned with the madness they were force-fed.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Great, we can henceforth ignore your appeals to it.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    At Joseph Smith’s death when, he was assassinated, the headlines read “Thus Endeth Mormonism.” Now there are 15,000,000 members.

    They said the Seventh Day Adventist movement would die too. Now it has 16,000,000 members.

    When the founder of the political party I was involved with died in a truck accident, University political scientists were quoted in the news as saying the political party would probably die off now that the charismatic leader and founder had died. I became chairman of the party and the numbers went from 16,000 registered members to 50,000 in 4 years. The growth shocked the experts.

    Your Sacred Trust Socialist religion will die soon from its own insurmountable debt. I am looking forward to it.`

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    I quote those parts that are useful to my beliefs just like all Christians do. Those parts that confirm other scripture can be useful.

    You could have ignored me from the first., You CHOOSE not to.

    In lawsuits lawyers often quote the same former ruling believing they have two totally different conclusions. Or they use rulings by the same court that obviously disagree one from another.

    I am sorry you are unable to understand such concepts.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    And where are those plates again? Still waiting on the plates? I mean, sure, people are following & quoting Joseph Smith or his “translations.” But where are those plates?

    Shroud yourself in fiction as much as you please, if it keeps you warm.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    What a remarkable scholar of hermeneutics you are. You talk about who you are and what you do so much. It’s awfully masturbatory.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    They are with the Arc of the Covenant, the original Ten Commandments, the Original books of Moses, the Sayings of the Seers, the original book of Jasher, The Book of the War of the Lords, the original book of Enoch, the City of Atlantis, the missing link of Evolution and other things. Or the owner took them back. The were only on loan to Smith.

    I am still waiting on proof God does not exist.

    God told His children that First comes the test of faith. YOu failed the test and God does not cast His pearls before swine. God told you that and yet you want God to do it your way. Foolish. If you had the original Gold Plates then you would not need faith. God is just following His declared game plan. Too bad if you do not approve. He is God. Not you.

    Can you use the Book of Mormon to prove it is not what it claims to be? No. You cannot. Smith must have been a genius and a prophet to have written that book if he did not translate it by the power of God as he claims.

    The evidence keeps mounting of the truth of the book, just like Smith said it would. He also claimed that the religion he started would be in every country on earth. That is very near to being fulfilled. The Book of Mormon is currently translated into 91 languages and section of it into even more.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Actually, evidence keeps mounting that the writing of Joseph Smith were written by him. And there’s no reason to have faith in something just because someone said God told them. That’s foolish.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Is there? By whom? The Tanners of Lighthouse ministries that make their living off anti-mormonism? Their evidence is mostly just out of desperation since the Solomon Spaulding theory was totally discredited by the Tenner’s themselves. Of course Dr. Martin of the Bible Answer man has totally discredited the Tanners due to the complexity of the Book of Mormon and the lack of education Smith had. The Tanner are the best of the anti-Mormons though. No one else holds a candle to their research. Either Smith wrote it, which is impossible, or it is what it claims to be.

    So where can I read this evidence of which you write? I have studied anti-Mormonism for 40 years. I have read everyone from the Catholic Church to the Bible Answer Man to John Ankerberg to the Southern Baptists to the Tanners, etc. You are, therefore,to the best of my knowledge, in error. But by all means let me have the link[s] or book[s] you claim have such evidence. I would LOVE to read them. It is a hobby of mine to read anti-Mormon evidence.

    No one should have faith in anything that was not personally confirmed to them by the Spirit of God Himself. Didn’t you know that?

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    So you’re reading critiques of mormonism by other religious nutjobs? you’re looking in the wrong place. Why not just start with the sources at the end of this wiki entry?


    If you want to believe Smith’s ridiculous accounts, then that’s fine by me. Go for it.

    The Spirit of God or your unconscious desires? Stop stating your unverifiable viewpoints as self-evident facts, you jackass.

  • christopher@ubernet.net' Christopher says:

    Wikipedia? Really? That’s the best you can do? I am sure that article was peer reviewed. 🙂

    Your proof (LOL) includes the following:
    “It is said that archaeologists and Egyptologists have found no evidence that this language ever existed.”

    In El Mirador, Guatemala, it was discovered that the city was Pre-classic Maya. No such large cities were believed to even exist not long ago. The date for them is 300 BC which is right in the middle of the Nephite time frame. They still cannot read the language discovered there of those pre-classic Maya. So although “Egyptologists have found no evidence that this language ever existed’ that means nothing since scientist cannot even read this form of Pre-classic Mayan.

    If you follow science then you know that a lack of discovered evidence means ONLY that such evidence has not yet been discovered not that it did not exist.

    Neanderthal DNA is a prime example. So is the proof that Vikings were in the Americas long before columbus. Archeologists have not even scratched the surface of the Mississippi Mound Builder culture.

    I could go on with scientists and links that clean the floor with your out of date Wiki article but my 13 year old dog is having seizures tonight and looks like he is going to die so I will not be posting more for a while.

  • asmorrell@gmail.com' Andre M says:

    Hahaha… pretty lame dismissal. There’s a whole body of evidence in BOOKS CITED IN THE WIKI, which is what I was drawing your attention to. Each retort of yours is so full of holes and masturbatory posturing designed to avoid the difficult points you’d rather not face. You have no engagement with actual science or reason, or you’d be able to offer thoughtful, nuanced arguments. But your rhetoric is styled like that of some fantasy prophet, making broad sweeping statements that ignore the vast complexities of realities. You are an extremist and yours are being relegated further & further to the fringes of American society until one day you will thankfully disappear. The facts are in: the trend is not toward crazy religious extremism in the US. Some of you may have loud voices now, but as a whole we are shedding off our history of religious insanity.

  • eeyoretom@comcast.net' OneBaha'i says:

    So your faith revolves around the value of the currency? And you feel persecuted because you can’t—what—name your own value for it? I’m having difficulty understanding your message, but I’m tired of hearing Christians complain about persecution in the United States. They wallow in a self-pity that is unbecoming as well as unwarranted.

    Let me describe governmental persecution for you.

    Persecution is drawing up a secret government policy memorandum outlining the measures that are to be taken to quietly strangle a religious community of 300,000 souls, a memorandum that states, among other things, “that their progress and development shall be blocked” by denying them access to education, employment, business licenses, and the least influence in their society. Persecution is orchestrating a campaign to identify and “to other” the members of the community to facilitate their oppression and, when expedient, to arrest, imprison, and even execute them without public trials. Persecution is allowing elementary school teachers to verbally abuse young children of this community simply for being young children of this community. Persecution is bulldozing the community’s cemeteries to build cultural centers for the dominant religion, discarding hundreds of corpses, some buried for decades, in a drainage ditch. Persecution is demolishing one of the community’s holiest sites and building a road over it. Persecution is denying the community even the right to organize its own activities by ordering its administration disbanded.

    This is what has been happening in Iran to the Baha’i community since the Islamic Revolution of 1979. You can read the memo here http://info.bahai.org/article-1-8-3-14.html and you can read a chilling report of some of the most recent steps being taken to increase the pressure on the Baha’is of Iran here http://question.bahai.org/pdf.php and you can get the entire story here http://iran.bahai.us/.

    Please, my Christian friends, don’t debase the horror of persecution by using the word loosely for cheap rhetorical effect. There is real religious persecution in the world today, and very little of it is occurring in the United States.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *